Free trade agreement - discuss.

[Shaddam IV]

WITHOUT turning this into a "labor policy vs Liberal policy" squabble, I would like some insights into free trade agreements with Asia, based on this article:

TRADE Minister Andrew Robb wants to sign free trade agreements with South Korea, Japan and China by the end of the Abbott government's first term in a move that promises a major boost for the nation's farmers and services sector.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-korea-and-japan/story-fn59nm2j-1226731877708

Am I right in thinking that this would, as mentioned, benefit "mining and farming" and hence tax revenues but would likely gut just about everything else? My thoughts:

Australia flooded with cheap consumer goods that leave Australian manufacturers unable to compete?

Australian produced fruit, vegetables, meat, fish and processed foods rising in price to supply the demand of wealthy Chinese who are looking for a safe food supply while Australians eat the cheap imported products like Basa fish and imported orange juice concentrate that are of dubious safety? China especially is having safety concerns with locally produced produce, and I wonder if it will be like our natural gas - Instead of Australians enjoying cheap energy from local resources, the gas price goes up into the stratosphere as it is more profitable to export it? Will we be priced out of our own food market and finish up eating lower quality imported food?

It seems to me that a free trade agreement like this will also result in us also importing Chinese wage and workplace conditions by necessity to allow our labour force to compete "freely"? Does free trade with a country that has such a radically different labour market mean that the labour force will be swept up in the "free trade" process also?

I have to say up-front that I am uneducated on FTA's and may be completely on the wrong track, I would like to hear what others have to say on the matter.

 

[Earthjade]

Free trade agreements are shit and always will be. When you think about it logically, why do you need an agreement to trade freely? It's an oxy-moron.

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.
What I mean is, in the years when they developed their economic strength, they did so under tariffs and other protective measures - the USA, Britain, Europe etc etc all went through this phase. It's only afterwards when you have the industry that you push for free trade and espouse the virtues of "comparative advantage" which was really just a way to justify to Portugal why it was natural that England sold them manufactured goods while they should stick to supplying them with port and wool.

 

[Byron]

WITHOUT turning this into a "labor policy vs Liberal policy" squabble, I would like some insights into free trade agreements with Asia, based on this article:

TRADE Minister Andrew Robb wants to sign free trade agreements with South Korea, Japan and China by the end of the Abbott government's first term in a move that promises a major boost for the nation's farmers and services sector.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...-korea-and-japan/story-fn59nm2j-1226731877708

Am I right in thinking that this would, as mentioned, benefit "mining and farming" and hence tax revenues but would likely gut just about everything else? My thoughts:

Australia flooded with cheap consumer goods that leave Australian manufacturers unable to compete?

Australian produced fruit, vegetables, meat, fish and processed foods rising in price to supply the demand of wealthy Chinese who are looking for a safe food supply while Australians eat the cheap imported products like Basa fish and imported orange juice concentrate that are of dubious safety? China especially is having safety concerns with locally produced produce, and I wonder if it will be like our natural gas - Instead of Australians enjoying cheap energy from local resources, the gas price goes up into the stratosphere as it is more profitable to export it? Will we be priced out of our own food market and finish up eating lower quality imported food?

It seems to me that a free trade agreement like this will also result in us also importing Chinese wage and workplace conditions by necessity to allow our labour force to compete "freely"? Does free trade with a country that has such a radically different labour market mean that the labour force will be swept up in the "free trade" process also?

I have to say up-front that I am uneducated on FTA's and may be completely on the wrong track, I would like to hear what others have to say on the matter.

Yes you right. And we have already experienced many of the things you are talking about. With these new fta'S conditions will get much, much worse.

Free trade is an absolute con and the death knell of this country. Don't let the snake oil merchants convince you otherwise.

 

[volrathy]

government shouldnt be involved in trade between individuals / organisations.

if a private individual wants to buy something from someone in china or new zealand or south korea why must the government butt in and take its % of the deal

remove all free trade agreeements and remove all tariffs and protectionism and free up the economy

 

[SilverSanchez]

There is no such thing as 'free'
Free Trade means encumbered trading

Those are the two sides of this trade 'coin'

Free trade = wealth transfer

 

[Shaddam IV]

government shouldnt be involved in trade between individuals / organisations.

if a private individual wants to buy something from someone in china or new zealand or south korea why must the government butt in and take its % of the deal

remove all free trade agreeements and remove all tariffs and protectionism and free up the economy

But would this not require that wages and work conditions also need to be freed of all government controls and interferences in order to balance the equation and free up the economy? Isn't the minimum wage, holiday pay, superannuation, penalty rates and sick leave and leave loading all examples of government protectionism that makes us un-competative and gets in the way of free trade of the commodity called "labour" and skews prices?

 

[willrocks]

Maybe the government could look at introducing free-trade on a domestic level first.

 

[errol43]

Free trade agreements are not really free are they? Remember the one we signed with the USA with much fanfare? We had to make a couple of exceptions before they signed..

No sugar and no beef(except hamburger quality sh..) were the order of the day. What a raw deal we got.

Australian farmers and the Australian people had better be careful or they will get shafted by the rough end of the pineapple.

Bananas from the Phillippnes are a case in progress.. Qld banana farmers don't want cheaper bananas from there because of the disease factor. What about the apples from NZ with fire blight..

I personally think that foods such as fruit and vegetables traded between nations are good for the mighty $ but not for disease protection.

The pig industry is another who is worried about the introduction of pork products into Australia.

However the Australian Farmers want it both ways, protect their own products while denying imported farm produce the right of entry.

If we sign a FTA with South Korea or China, then that will be the end of the car industry. It is probably too late now for not only have to subsidies the manufacturers but the buyers as well.

Australia has to keep those mines and farms open so as to subsidies our welfare states. Manufacturing in this country is dead as a DEAD DOGS' DONGER.

REGARDS ERROL 43

Edited for spelling error

 

[JulieW]

I oppose 'free trade' in foodstuffs. We can grow everything in Australia at some place or another. Not interested in garlic from China fertilized with urine and faeces, nor oranges from California flown in with a litre of jet fuel per kilo.

We have a giant advantage being the largest island and a continent, and we're flushing it away. Politicians are too easily seduced into putting us onto our knees.

 

[volrathy]

I oppose 'free trade' in foodstuffs. We can grow everything in Australia at some place or another. Not interested in garlic from China fertilized with urine and faeces, nor oranges from California flown in with a litre of jet fuel per kilo.

We have a giant advantage being the largest island and a continent, and we're flushing it away. Politicians are too easily seduced into putting us onto our knees.

Simply - buy local you are free to do that

Dont enforce your agenda on someone else.
If someone feels that garlic from china is what they like who are you to impose on them that they can and cant buy.
Freedom.

 

[bordsilver]

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.

Hong Kong. It works for a country with minimal natural resources or natural competitive advantages. The other big players achieved the same because they had big enough free trade zones internally.

Anyway this debunks any anti-free trade arguments

 

[col0016]

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.

Hong Kong. It works for a country with minimal natural resources or natural competitive advantages. The other big players achieved the same because they had big enough free trade zones internally.

Anyway this debunks any anti-free trade arguments

A good read (and not too long for all you guys who hate links lol).

 

[Byron]

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.

Hong Kong. It works for a country with minimal natural resources or natural competitive advantages. The other big players achieved the same because they had big enough free trade zones internally.

Anyway this debunks any anti-free trade arguments

A good read (and not too long for all you guys who hate links lol).

Oh yes that one link permanently debunks all doubt about free trade once and for all and forever and ever.

One for the armchair philosophers (again )

 

[Byron]

I oppose 'free trade' in foodstuffs. We can grow everything in Australia at some place or another. Not interested in garlic from China fertilized with urine and faeces, nor oranges from California flown in with a litre of jet fuel per kilo.

We have a giant advantage being the largest island and a continent, and we're flushing it away. Politicians are too easily seduced into putting us onto our knees.

Very true. Once cheap food imports are established on a mass scale, Aussie produce will become difficult to access and more expensive to boot.

The majority will have no choice but to buy imported rubbish.

So we go from good quality, safe, affordable Aussie produce to potentially lethal, unregulated, chemically laden imported crap.

There's a win for the libertarians right there.

 

[col0016]

I oppose 'free trade' in foodstuffs. We can grow everything in Australia at some place or another. Not interested in garlic from China fertilized with urine and faeces, nor oranges from California flown in with a litre of jet fuel per kilo.

We have a giant advantage being the largest island and a continent, and we're flushing it away. Politicians are too easily seduced into putting us onto our knees.

Very true. Once cheap food imports are established on a mass scale, Aussie produce will become difficult to access and more expensive to boot.

The majority will have no choice but to buy imported rubbish.

So we go from good quality, safe, affordable Aussie produce to potentially lethal, unregulated, chemically laden imported crap.

There's a win for the libertarians right there.

If it is as terrible as you say, why won't everybody just choose to support locally produced fruit and vegetables etc?
We already get oranges from the US, garlic from Mexico etc anyway.

 

[Shaddam IV]

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.

Hong Kong. It works for a country with minimal natural resources or natural competitive advantages. The other big players achieved the same because they had big enough free trade zones internally.

Anyway this debunks any anti-free trade arguments

I would like to hear your thoughts on free trade in the labour market with no government interference with wages and worker entitlements since that seems to go along with your views on free trade in general. I cannot see one existing without the other in a free system....

 

[Shaddam IV]

The glaring hole in the "trade should be free" argument as far as Australia is concerned is that if Australian businesses and employers are bound by thousands of government rules and restrictions on how they produce goods that Chinese businesses do not have then Australia should have tariffs and restrictions on imported goods to counter that imbalance. If Australia does not do so then in time we will become a country of massive unemployment. We have already started on that path. If Australians want overbearing government control over the people that employ them it is only fair that those employers receive protection of their businesses from that same government. If that protection is removed their ability to meet the entitlements of their workers disappears.

You can't have it both ways - if you want un-resricted access to sweatshop produced goods then be prepared to start looking for a sweatshop to employ you.

 

[SilverSaviour]

Free trade agreements are shit and always will be. When you think about it logically, why do you need an agreement to trade freely? It's an oxy-moron.

True

HOWEVER, having said that, there has never been a nation on this earth that has become an economic powerhouse as a result of free trade.

It is generally far more complicated than that. There is however many nations that have become economic powerhouses as a result of economic freedom. Free trade is just one aspect of this.

Free trade is an absolute con and the death knell of this country. Don't let the snake oil merchants convince you otherwise.

Wrong.
Free trade makes us wealthier, instantly.
I'm not sure if you realise this but most people prefer to be wealthier, rather than less wealthy.

government shouldnt be involved in trade between individuals / organisations.

if a private individual wants to buy something from someone in china or new zealand or south korea why must the government butt in and take its % of the deal

remove all free trade agreeements and remove all tariffs and protectionism and free up the economy

Yes !

There is no such thing as 'free'
Free Trade means encumbered trading

No it doesn't. What are you talking about ?

Those are the two sides of this trade 'coin'
Free trade = wealth transfer

True! wealth is transferred in BOTH directions. Money is transferred one way, a desired good is transferred the other way!
This is great because people like money, and people also like goods!

Oh yes that one link permanently debunks all doubt about free trade once and for all and forever and ever.
One for the armchair philosophers (again )

Yes it does actually.

I have a challenge for you Byron. Please read the article, then quote any parts of it that you disagree with specifically and we can discuss the logic of each.
This could be a learning exercise for all of us.

The glaring hole in the "trade should be free" argument as far as Australia is concerned is that if Australian businesses and employers are bound by thousands of government rules and restrictions on how they produce goods that Chinese businesses do not have then Australia should have tariffs and restrictions on imported goods to counter that imbalance. If Australia does not do so then in time we will become a country of massive unemployment. We have already started on that path. If Australians want overbearing government control over the people that employ them it is only fair that those employers receive protection of their businesses from that same government. If that protection is removed their ability to meet the entitlements of their workers disappears.

You can't have it both ways - if you want un-resricted access to sweatshop produced goods then be prepared to start looking for a sweatshop to employ you.

We don't generally compete in the same industries. Australia is much better at services than China. China is much better at making T-shirts and toasters.
It doesn't even have to be an even trade with aussie exports = aussie imports because all that money that goes to china buying toasters and T-shirts comes back in the form of investment in bonds/shares/real estate/etc etc.

 

[mmm....shiney!]

So we go from good quality, safe, affordable Aussie produce to potentially lethal, unregulated, chemically laden imported crap.

Don't assume that because the product is Australian it is quality, likewise don't assume if the product is foreign it is lacking quality.

There's a win for the libertarians right there.

A Libertarian (Bored Silver or SilverSaviour) recognises the right of the consumer to purchase whatever he or she wants. An Austrian economist (Bored Silver or SilverSaviour) understands that consumption is an ongoing series of choices that are made with mostly limited resources - and that in a world of limited purchasing power the first choices or products discarded are those that have a low marginal utility - simply, those that bring the least amount of satisfaction.

There are no wins (or losses) for Libertarians (Bored Silver or SilverSaviour) or even Austrian economists (Bored Silver or SilverSaviour) - the wins or losses are for consumers. Now if they value Basa higher than RTE, then the increasing imports of the former that replace the latter on the shelves of seafood suppliers is a win for them, if not, then they lose.

Because Libertarians and Austrian Economists are also consumers, they also have wins or losses.

:/

 

[mmm....shiney!]

I'm going to have to agree with EJ (for once, let's not make it a habit EJ):

Free trade agreements are shit and always will be. When you think about it logically, why do you need an agreement to trade freely? It's an oxy-moron.