JLiz, Good points. The old timer coin collector I most recently had a conversation with actually spent almost all the money she paid for coins on collector (proof) coins bought directly from the US Mint. I think her first purchases from the US Mint were in the late 70's or early 80's. She told me emphatically "no", when I asked, if she ever looked closely at the coins she received to see if they were in superior condition. She looked at me as if I was joking. Then she told me they came directly from the mint so of course they would be in superior condition and she never bothered once to question the condition. So, just like those stackers / coin collectors of today who buy collector (semi-numi / proof) coins, this old timer did as well. The difference is that today, many of these stackers / collectors are looking to receive virtually flawless perfect coins whereas years ago, that was not the norm from what I understand. More than likely, most people who bought coins from the mint during that time never bothered to see if the coins they got had a tiny nick or a milk spot that is visible to the eye. I believe it is only a recent phenomenon. What changed since about the early 1980's? I think TPG became an acceptable value creator for many collectors....never before seen demand for near perfect uncirculated modern coins has spurred this phenomenon. Very high premiums are being acquired on some or many modern semi-numi coins that are determined to be the highest grades. .
I think you might be right at a local level, this would account for the American market but overseas, we are aware of the TPGs but there is not a mass uptake of the services. Our grading is still pretty much "UNC, Good, Poor and the numerous grades in between" And now that the public has been convinced that there is enough difference between an MS69 and an MS70 to warrant a massive increase in premium they have started trying to convince us that a first strike or an early strike is also a thing that is worth paying extra for. I think for Australia (and I don't speak for my adopted country) we are just used to quality items if we spend money, eating out is expensive, so we expect it to be good. Crazy Clarks Cheap plastic imported rubbish is cheap and we expect it to fall apart in next to no time. Even with ALDIs, which is not cheap but not expensive, you have an expectation that anything with a plug attached to it is not going to last long. I think we just extrapolate that to coins, if we are paying a lot we expect the quality to be really high, and if we pay the same price as someone else we want our coin to be as good as theirs is, not slightly worse. I think that we will start to see more of a link between TPGs and Mints in the future, possibly with the entire mint output being graded and priced accordingly, at the moment you have a lottery with disgruntled customers. If mints can improve their quality so the majority of output for numis is between MS68-70, if they can absorb the cost of grading into the price of the coin without increasing the price too much, then I can see a long happy relationship between the two companies, happier mint customers and the inevitable complaints about overgrading and insider deals and not being able to get hold of raw coins etc.
Back in 2009 I had a similar experience buying a 5 oz Proof Panda from Panda America. When the coin arrived it looked good at first glance but closer eyeballing (no magnification) revealed flaws on both sides. My thought at the time was the same as yours, barsenault, so I called PA and ran the situation by them saying I would like to return the coin for a replacement without the obvious flaws. They took the time to go through their inventory and got right back to me saying they couldn't send a better coin. I returned the coin and received a total refund, no problem. I was bummed about not having the 5 oz. Proof Panda but very pleased with the customer service from Panda America. Provident Metals, on the other hand, won't be getting any of my business.
Yo missing. Thanks for your email this morning. Very good thoughts you shared. I look forward to responding. Very interesting indeed!! As far as your note above is concerned, the collector of the 70's and 80's probably weren't concerned about spots, because there were none to worry about. LOL. As far as dings and nicks, since they weren't mass producing a gazillion different types and sets every month or day, the quality was probably just fine...now a days, 20,000 collectibles (i.e. 2014 Pandas) was probably 10 different type of collecible coins over 10 years for the mint. LOL. And please know, I'm not looking for a perfect, 70 coin. Not in the least. I don't even have a loupe or a magnifying thingy. I just want a coin to look clean from the outset. If I cause the nick or if the spot happens on my watch, then oh well...I'll live with it. But that it came that way, granted, it may not be the fault of Provident, they should have examined and done something about it...but to pass it on to me, and then wash their hands clean of the issue on a collectible coin, that ain't going to cut it. Can you imagine if the 2014 Brittania Silver Proof, with that beautiful lady, had a spot on her arse or a nick there...I'm sure folks would be up an arms, ready to 'kill.' Why? Because they are looking for a 'perfect lady,' without flaws or imperfections...well, I'm looking for a 'perfect bear' is all...not with a loupe, but thru my eyes. Oh, and if wanted a nick or a spot, I'd just buy a slab, blob, or a POS generic kilo round at half the cost.
Hey Barsenault, Semantics again. Whether we use one or another term(s) like "near perfect", "clean", no "imperfections", no "flaws", "high quality", "superior", or any other to describe the high quality that today many buyers are expecting from raw coins, that is quite different from what most buyers were used to prior to somewhere around the 1980's or 90's. That's what I've been able to glean talking to old timers who used to buy uncirculated collector coins. These folks I've talked to didn't bother to check for any visible dings or milk spots on coins even though I guarantee you, such imperfections were actually more prevalent on coins then, than they are today. The quality of US Mint coins has improved over the years from what I've read in a recent article about Kennedy half dollars. The article pointed out that earlier uncirculated Kennedy halves that were never put into circulation were of lesser quality than Kennedy halves produced today. It's probably the reason why early Kennedy halves in the highest condition are extremely rare or non-existent. Very recently, I purchased from the US Mint 1 of the 2014 uncir Kennedy Half Dollars sets (http://www.coinnews.net/2014/08/14/us-mint-sales-kennedy-half-dollar-clad-sets-steady/). Normally, 2 years ago when I first started buying silver and coins, I would not have bothered to check to see if the 2 sealed coins in this set had minor imperfections but I did now. I found a couple of imperfections and I returned this coin set for a refund. How much is the cost of this coin set? Under $10....not hundreds or thousands of dollars....the price is actually not the determining factor....it's this idea that I want a collector coin that is virtually flawless. The fact that you and I today look for small visible imperfections on uncirculated collector coins makes this behavior different than the behavior of many or most people who bought uncirculated coins a few decades ago. Please don't misunderstand....I'm not making a judgment on the folks who do this today, rather I'm simply trying to understand why it is so. It's almost certainly not because the quality has gotten worse (if anything, the quality has improved in most, but perhaps maybe not all, cases) but rather it's because something else has changed. And yes, it may be a regional thing as jLiz pointed out. Here in the US it seems to be obvious to me that the widespread acceptance of TPG services has significantly influenced the way many buyers today buy coins. Today many buyers are evaluating unc. collector coins coming from a mint or a large dealer very differently than buyers were evaluating the same kinds of coins (unc. collector coins) decades ago. I think the outcome of this behavior today will mean that prices between collector coins and bullion coins will become even more divergent as fewer and fewer buyers will be willing to accept "minor imperfections" in the collector coins they want to purchase. Dealers will not readily be able to sell those coins that decades ago would have not been a problem selling. The mints will likely have to step up QC and this will add cost to collector coin production, I think. All because, in the end, the demand for coins with minor visible imperfections is being eschewed like the plague and the demand for "high quality", "clean", "superior" coins is increasing significantly. .
IM DONE BUYING FROM PROVIDENT TOO im not a coin collector but a bullion buyer and consider myself a heavy buyer. i had 2 orders with them, one that they rec'd the check on and was ready to ship and another little order that the check was lost on. they held up shipping my large order, she said it will not go into processing until payment for the small order arrives. i got very aggravated over it because one order should not hold up another order, basicly they held my large order hostage until they rec'd payment for the small order and that dont fly with me I RATHER PAY MORE THAN PAY THESE BASTARDS
I'm with you 100%. They are the worst I've dealt with. Gainesville is up there too. APMEX has been the best, bar none - for me personally. Heck, they even take returns on bullion coins. Gainseville and Provident do NOT. I'm talking a collectible that I paid a hefty premium on, that was supposed to be in 'perfect condition,' at the very least to the human eye, and they're saying, 'well, you know, we can't do that.' Fine, just give me my dang money back you knuckleheads. They are seriously some of the worst I've dealt with in the coin business. Now granted their price of 1075.00 for a Panda proof is a ton lower than APMEX at 1495. And that's okay, I just won't buy the Pandas. There are obviously a lot of other coins I can buy from APMEX that are competitively priced, and that I really like. So, Provident can stick it.
For those crazy enough, I just got a notice saying they got these in inventory. I think this is one of the more popular issues, and at a low price...just have fun working with them if you have to return anything, for any legit reason. ))) http://www.providentmetals.com/2014...al-1-iconic-supermantm-comic-book-covers.html
I'll be the first to admit I am bias towards Provident Metals. Not only do I live in Texas, but they were the first company to get me started in collecting silver. But I have never had a problem with them. I usually stick to bullion, maybe that's why? But I have made numerous orders for about a year now and everything went smoothly. However, if I did have a problem and they gave me this whole speech about, we have nothing better and we can only swap them out.. that would be pretty upsetting. But hey, I would still give them a second chance. Like stated above, I think the worse is Gainesville. I bought several coins from them and they were horrible condition. They were nice enough to swap out the coins for me but the second was just as bad. But, in the future I would give them another chance if they had a good deal on coins. That's why I like to stick with Provident. They have good prices. My only problem is they lack good selection. I still choose APMEX as the best. It may be more but I trust them and they always have a good amount in stock and to select from.
Thankfully, I haven't had any quality or customer service related issues from Provident as of yet, but one thing annoyed me about them. I provided a constructively worded negative review on their website of one of their in-house-minted rounds. All reviews go through their filters before they are made live and after a few days I found they refused to post it. In fact, I tried again and still nothing. Apparently they don't take kindly to constructive criticisms. Later on I provided a positive review of another of their in-house rounds and it was posted immediately. Not a huge deal, but I think this instance is consistent with your experience in them neglecting the voice of their customers. I have made several orders through them, but I consider this thread as a red flag. Thanks for the heads-up.
What you will find is that they don't delete your review, but they block it from viewing by other customers. The one time I bought silver bars it was from Provident. The order was 20 1oz silver tiger bars and some tubes of ASEs. Even though the s&h was much higher, they put everything into a small priority box. The ASE tubes completely filled the box, but the packer crammed the the bars on top of the tubes without any protection above or below the bars. The box bulged outward and the bars were damaged. Provident said they wouldn't take back or exchange the bars. Lost all respect for Provident at that point. Gainesville is just as bad. And the one time I bought a gold bar Provident sent me a damaged one. I don't know if the damaged to the gold bar occurred before or during shipment, but that was all it took for me to avoid all bars. Edit to add: They blocked my review on the silver bars from the public, but they did call to see if I was the one that posted it. You have to decide whether the savings on ordering from Provident or Gainesville is worth the problems that may occur. Btw, it looks like Provident is phasing out the older kooks. They are out of most years and don't have buy back prices for those years. The 2007 has a buy back price of spot + $5.00. Forget about Gainesville for older PM coins. The one time I called them about selling some kooks and lunars. their offers were $1-3 over spot and that included 2010 1oz lunar tigers. These were coins they didn't have in stock. That was 15 minutes of my life that I will never get back. Possible that dealers are starting to shrink inventories. It looks like Apmex will become the only game in town for older kooks.
Or maybe the market is over saturated and dealers don't want to hold the risk of products that are abundantly available or just don't sell well any more at prices that the dealer needs to make? .
Apmex has higher for sale prices than Provident and Gainesville, so market saturation doesn't appear to be the reason. I don't think Gainesville ever tried to carry the older coins, but this seem to be a policy shift for Provident. My guess is that sales are slowing and they are cutting back. But since Provident has been trying to match Apmex pricing on a lot of their PM coins, there really hasn't been a lot of reasons for me to buy from Provident. I hate to see less competition, but Apmex has become my main supplier anyway.
Yeah, I totally remember the same thing. But this was on their Facebook page. I had a negative post and happened to mention APMEX. They replied to me to try and help then mentioned since I "mentioned their competitor" they would have to delete the post. And they did. I thought that was messed up. If you don't want me to mention your competitor, be better than them. I think I mentioned that they seem to never have anything in stock. Literally I have so many items on "notify me" when in stock. I told them I did like their company but since they never have anything in stock that I purchase more from APMEX. It was actually helpful in my opinion on what they can do better. But yeah, maybe all companies do that? It would make sense.
Seems clear to me that Provident is changing its business model from selling mostly coins to selling mostly rounds that it designs. Far, far less inventory requirements. Gainesville has them beat on coin prices and Apmex has them beat on customer service and selection. It will be interesting to see how well this business model works for them.
I don't know if it's their new business model but I totally just realized that! They have the Zombucks series, they have the new Hercules series and now the Prospector round. Makes sense. I wouldn't doubt if they sell less and less of other mints' items. Haha I just tried it to prove my point, if you go to their site, click silver and then Mexican silver.. on the first page, out of 24 items, they literally have 5 of them in stock. Same thing with the Canadian Maple Leaf page. 7 items out of 24 are in stock on the first page. Is this even a business if they only have like 20% of items in stock!?
I have to say I'm with the OP on this one, if your paying a 100% premium over spot for a coin on the sole basis that it is a high quality round with intrinsic artistic value beyond its bullion content and half decent QC is part of that. 1kg bars make up the majority of my stack so I am only recently coming around to the idea that paying 50% over spot is reasonable for 1oz bu lunar rounds is reasonable, paying 1kUSD+ for a kilo of silver to me says your paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars specifically not to have these issues. I would also agree that if you want a ms69/70 you should buy a graded coin but it certainly shouldn't have such obvious flaws.
And here is what is even more funnier. They put my 2 coins...with obvious imperfection - spots and a nick - back in inventory, hoping to pawn it off on a sucker who doesn't care or who won't look, or heck, doesn't mind now paying DOUBLE for a panda over a Perth mint horse. Granted, they had a bit of a story with me buying at 1,070, but they've since up'd the price to 1330.00, and they are selling it to some sucker. Be careful with these guys! You have a right to at least get your money back if you buy a collectible and you don't like it. If you buy bullion, you are screwed! No refund no exchange. No thanks. Give me APMEX, the best in the industry, here in the U.S.
