The Semantics of Buzz & Unbuzz

Discussion in 'General Precious Metals Discussion' started by Pendragon, Aug 16, 2020.

  1. Pendragon

    Pendragon Active Member

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    @dollar’s understanding of contract formation in the now closed thread is correct:

    https://www.silverstackers.com/foru...zz-in-the-silverstackers-lexicon.97352/page-7

    The contrary claims about what buzz means in the above thread are incoherent. I don’t have the time to explain the confusion between

    · legal perceptual norms

    · ethical valuation norms

    · forum-specific perceptual, behavioural & denotational norms

    other than to point out that forum norms are subservient to contract perceptual norms and wider community valuation norms.

    The buzz by the buyer in the selling post is the offer not the acceptance – even if the seller says, “I am offering X” . This is a laymen’s “offer” called in law “invitation to treat” (invitation to make an offer). This is not a matter of opinion or subject to whims. If we were to treat these laymen “offers” as legal offers, which is impossible anyhow, it would expose sellers to dire straight. As every private message and buzz “acceptance” of these “offers” would bind the seller to a contract to deliver! Contract formation occurs with acceptance, in this case by the seller. So, unless and until the seller accepts, unconditionally the offer, a contract is not formed. The seller can accept by saying “done deal”, “all yours mate”, “send payment to xxx” or any other expression that would imply acceptance. The buzz most certainly is not the universally recognised acceptance that binds the seller to a contract.

    a buzz in the selling thread is shorthand for a communication act:

    I offer to purchase the goods in question on the terms and conditions that you outlined in your invitation to treat

    The consequence of a buzz is to create an entity - an offer on the table for the seller

    A buzz can certainly place qualifications or specifications on the offer such as:

    Buzz - 2 bars [I offer to buy two bars from your set on the terms and conditions …..]

    Buzz - expires 9 am Monday morning [this makes explicit to the seller the temporal window of opportunity to take up the offer and abrogates any community default expiry standard]

    Buzz - seller post-first [abrogates forum default of buyer pays-first]

    Buzz - f2f Sydney CBD option

    Buzz back up or

    Buzz - all bars [even when a previous buzz offered to purchase 2 of the bars is fine - It is up to the seller to choose between offers on the table as long as he has not already accepted the 2-bar purchase offer. Moreover if he turns around and tells the all-bars offeror – the remaining one bar is yours mate that is not an acceptance – that is a counter offer which the buyer can decline because that involves a change in the terms of his offer - all bars.]

    What is unethical in a buzz is

    Buzz with an additional $20 over the first buzz

    Does the Silver Stacker community have a norm, or can it adopt a norm to hold the offeror to his offer indefinitely and strip him of the capacity to withdraw his offer? The answers are a simple no and impossible . We have no such norm – the belief in such a norm in the heads of some individuals is not evidence of a norm adoption by the community. In any case it is not legally or socially feasible or morally acceptable to adopt such a norm. The rare use of unbuzz evidences that most sellers tend to their invitation-to-treat threads and take up offers promptly. The rare use of unbuzz is not evidence of community disparagement. A seller should also be aware that if he/she makes any changes to any terms in his acceptance, then it is deemed a counteroffer and will, like the unbuzz, extinguish the buyer’s offer, for example “all yours mate but make payment by bitcoin instead of bank transfer”. Now the ball is in the court of the buyer and the buyer can decline, accept, or wait until the seller’s counteroffer is withdrawn or expires. A seller may well feel that an unbuzz is unwelcome, but why does he not promptly turn the offer into a contract with a simple “all yours”. If a seller makes a counteroffer, he will learn what it is like to hold onto his goods until he gets a reply. The offeror is under no legal, moral or silver stacker convention to give a reason for why he has withdrawn his offer. That is his prerogative – just like the acceptance of any offer is the prerogative of the seller. This is how a free and fair market works.

    An unbuzz in a selling thread is shorthand for a communication act:

    I withdraw my offer [it extinguishes the offer and directs the seller to consider another offer]

    There is nothing illegal, immoral or unacceptable with an unbuzz if it occurs before a contract is formed – after that we are in contract reneging territory and that is another story.

    The silver stacker forum community does have some forum-specific behavioural norms to maintain community standards specifically:

    · buyers and sellers should post honest feedback for those they transact with.

    · reneging on a contract is a serious violation of community norms (see @ztricky’s conversation with @ozcopper & myself in 2017)

    · the seller should consider accepting offers in chronological order

    · a new member should expect to post-first but only to established members

    · buyers should not make gazumping offers

    · seller should not accept gazumping offers

    The main issue I have with @dollar’s excellent contribution is the allusion that the contracting ontology is a by-product of a Rudd-specific Geneva convention agreement. What we are dealing with here is far more basic and universal - a conversation protocol for contract formation tested over 1400 years of human history, incorporated in the English legal system more than 800 years ago and universally recognized.

    What is missing in Silver Stacker convention is clarity on a default expiry period for offers. What is to stop acceptance of an offer made three years earlier?

    I hope that this contribution has clarified the semantics of buzz and unbuzz for all - inventing words does not change the underlying reality.
     
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  2. dollars

    dollars Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Wow excellent detailed explanation Pendragon



    Regarding the difference between UCC and Vienna conventions I belivied that although almost being the same there were three ?main differences one was that under UCC the offer to sell was binding. Thank you for your clear explanation

    Cheer$
     
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  3. Aurora et luna

    Aurora et luna Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    When honorable men conduct business on this forum, all this marlarky legalese is superfluous!
    A handshake is good enough for me and for the majority of the people here!
     
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  4. dozerz

    dozerz Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    there are no rules, whatever the buyer and seller wants as above a handshake is fine.
     
  5. Pendragon

    Pendragon Active Member

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    Think - when does this handshake occur ?
     
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  6. Pendragon

    Pendragon Active Member

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    Think: how do you know what the buyer and seller want? - we call that a meeting of minds.

    Contract law claims that occurs when an offer is accepted unconditionally?

    Share with us how you are propose to work out when this point in a conversation is reached.?
     
  7. potala

    potala Member Silver Stacker

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    Indeed - the handshake does not occur when the potential buyer does the buzz as the seller may have already received a PM offer to buy unbeknown to the public buzzer, in which case the seller would sell to the PM'er and say 'sorry missed out' to the buzzer.
    The handshake cannot be till the seller accepts the buzz therefore the buzzer should be able to pull out up until the seller accepts his buzz.
     
  8. spannermonkey

    spannermonkey Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    OOOOHHHH FFS
    Why complicate something that should be so simple ? :mad:
    Bring in the legalise speak & I'm out of here .
     
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  9. Aurora et luna

    Aurora et luna Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I fully agree with Spannermonkey!
    Why anyone here need to bastardize a perfectly useful word in the Stackers lexicon just escapes me.
    Since the majority of the buyers and sellers here fully understood and obeyed the spirit of the Buzz, why are we cluttering threads with more and more conditional derivatives of what was once a simple word with a clear cut meaning.
    It worked reasonably well over the years and I hope it remains so!
     
  10. Gra gold coast

    Gra gold coast New Member

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    Well I'm a newbie ..recently some gold coins were offered on the forum I messaged the seller made an offer he said SURE ..i then messaged him 3 more times asking how to make payment don't you want my details etc etc this was near 4 week's ago all on pm ..todate no reply..its rude as a newbie I introduced myself and this guy seems to be a well respected and long standing member it has put me off ..and made me very weary especially when I see your expected to send be fore payment ..as a newbie I expected he would communicate not 1 word ..I run a FB page for collecting whiskey for last 17 years ..recently started collecting gold im a pensioner and will admit I offered less then spot I'm unaware of how it works on this forum Is it if there is a post then that's the price ? No negotiation ..some of my whiskey bottles can fetch over 10k a bottle but there is always negotiation ?
    So maybe it was my mistake to make an offer on 3 coins but to get a reply of SURE from a long term member and zero contact ? All a.person can do is read posts and try to become a good member in this forum and the above post on buzz ethics has helped me a lot so Thank you for the info ...a new lesson learned ..I hope to transact with many and become a positive member I feel this is a great place to deal with local and like-minded folks have a great day kind regards G
     
  11. Silverling

    Silverling Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Hi mate, this is not the norm and it happens to long standing members too. Hang in there, 98% of the forum will answer you even if they say they can't meet your offer. Good luck mate and if you do have any questions about anything you can PM me and I will answer you 100%, cheers and welcome to the forum.
     
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  12. Gra gold coast

    Gra gold coast New Member

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    Silverling appreciate your kind words sir ...have a great day
     
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  13. Aurora et luna

    Aurora et luna Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I can see where you went astray with the seller!
    You offered below spot which is like a red flag to a bull!
    In the early days of this forum, even offering spot was skirting dangerously close to being labelled a lowballer.
    Nowadays every second or third offer a seller receives is below spot.
    I do reply to those lowball offers but only with a curt "No"!
    You are a newbie, you explained your actions and hopefully will never offer below spot on this forum, you are a whiskey lover; that's a good start in my books.
     
  14. Gra gold coast

    Gra gold coast New Member

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    Appreciate your words of wisdom ..thank you ...
     
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  15. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    100% agree.
    Buzz = buy.
    Unbuzz = time waster = bad feedback
    Simple as that
    Want conditions on the sale ask seller before buzzing, other wise honor your buzz

    The first post with all that detailed shit is just BS
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  16. dollars

    dollars Active Member Silver Stacker

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    @AEL A simple question would it be ok for a buyer to leave negative feedback if the seller did not proceed with a sale and did not disclose in the sale thread that the items were no longer available prior to the buzz?

    I believe the problem seems to be unjustified negative feedback !

    Regarding offers below spot I believe it has been the industry standard to offer below spot.

    Most coin shops (excluding the newest forum participant bullion now ) Perth mint and most every buyer for any coins,

    For example if I want any particular coin ( or any item ) I will often ask the seller what their buy price is, nine times out of ten it is below spot! Recently when 1966 50’s were around $9 the offer was below $5. I don’t take offence or call the seller/buyer lowballed or any other names.

    Cheer$

    @spannermonkey I also like to keep things simple however often things are not what they seem for example the prices quoted for the falcon gtho’s I know you have experience in the vehicle market and have read and taken onboard you comments however most of the public ( including my brother) can’t or won’t believe what happens behind the reported prices
     
  17. clear

    clear Well-Known Member

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    @Pendragon - can a "buzz" be a unilateral contract ? or is the seller entering a unilateral contract ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
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  18. LiverBird

    LiverBird Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  19. Aurora et luna

    Aurora et luna Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    All these hypotheticals!
    We should all follow Michael Steven four letter post " KiSS"
    If a seller or buyer is an arseh*le, then both parties are free to post negative feedbacks if they think they have been wronged. However if anyone makes a honest mistake a simple apology should suffice.
    99% of buyers and sellers here are OK! I know, I have done business with a lot of people here!
    I also like to comment that there is no such thing as an industry standard to buy back bullion below spot. Dealers offer below spot because they can!
    There will always be people who either can't be bothered reselling it privately or are not aware there are other avenues to sell their bullion.
    I was a bullion dealer for five years and I have never insulted anyone by offering below spot. Spot was always the minimum!
     
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  20. Pendragon

    Pendragon Active Member

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    Good questions. No, the buzz is not a unilateral contract. Almost all contracts formed on Silver Stackers are bilateral contracts because there is an exchange of promises between the seller and buyer - typically one promises to make a cash payment and the other provides precious metal.

    The buzz, in a selling thread, is nothing more than shorthand for a communication act from the potential buyer:

    I offer to purchase the goods in question on the terms and conditions that you outlined in your invitation to treat (Advertisement)

    The buzz creates an offer on the table for the seller – an opportunity to form a bilateral contract.

    A unilateral contract, on the other hand, is a unilateral promise by one party for another to act (or not act). This is typically made for awards. Occasionally we get a colleague who makes such a contract on Silver Stackers. They give out something for anyone who does x. No one is obliged to do x but if anyone does x then the award giver is obliged to fulfill his promise.

    The Silver Stacker buzz is a communication act used by buyers in the conversation towards the formation of a bilateral contract. It is a cool device for rapid communication. It is superfluous in the context of unilateral contracts and not used by sellers anyhow.
     
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