[The 1st Perth Mint Silver Bar - Serial No.1]

Discussion in 'Silver' started by tozak, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    US
    If you measure the "THE" against the circle logo, you'll see that the kilo bar in the photo that I provided is the same as Type A & B -- not D, whose "THE" is actually smaller than the circle logo.
     
  2. goldpelican

    goldpelican Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    17,890
    Likes Received:
    272
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Very occasionally old PM bars come up with the original paperwork receipts which would give some provenance to date theories - if anyone has any such receipts in their possession they would be very useful for this sort of research.
     
  3. Miloman

    Miloman Active Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Again my thoughts....

    After looking at the 999. Compare them... it's indicative that OP bar is earlier type to me.

    The geometry of the bars. You'll see for another example the 10oz "D" type is again consistent with the later generation of bars. (This is the same as the Gaito's 1kg bar, it's the shape of the later type)

    Also look at the tooling of the numbers on the back of the bar.

    Also the gaito's bar "1" and the mona lisa bar "1" doesn't to me mean that gaito's bar was made earlier, just means the "1" punch was still around and used. In fact they don't look like the same "1" at all.

    Lastly, the patina on the bars, this also is consistant with what i am saying.

    My thoughts remain that OP bar came before Gaito's bar.
     
  4. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    US
    Issue with that is.. Buy-backs?


    I don't know who sold retail, what & when. But technically, that could potentially erroneously confirm something that might not necessarily be accurate.
     
  5. tozak

    tozak Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,987
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Australia
    Don't know if you can compare the sizing of letters and logo on a 10oz to a kilo, but both Types A & B are 'odd ball' weights, that kilo bar is not an odd ball weight. You would have to assume all odd ball weighted bars pre-date the others. The entire layout of that bar matches the Type D
     
  6. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    From my point of view

    1. The Evolution of PM bars
    2. How the stamping started ~ Monalisa Bar is the Key Bar, where it was stamped in the middle.
    3. Then Look at the word FINE , the Letter E , look at the middle section, there are two varieties there, short and long
    which suggest more than one stamps
    4. Numeral 1, not important.
    5. Bar 1 , only mean it was the first stamped, you can't guaranteed it was the first bar that been poured, then stamped 1.
    6. You can aged the Patina, given 6 months to a year... , by putting in that box , the aging have occurred.
    7. Will continue later... Given out to much information , people never appreciated :rolleyes:
     
  7. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    US
    Sure you can.. You have to. It's the stamps, themselves, not the relations to the size of the bars.

    Issue with that is, I believe there are actually 2 different-sized circle logo's.

    But the "THE" of Type D is much smaller than that of A & B, in comparison to the logo. Measure 'em for yourself.


    I know you want yours to be series 1, and for you I hope it is.

    But it's apparent nobody yet knows for sure, based on the posts so far. I think series 1 & series 2 are really close in time to one another, but there's too much about the AllEngelhard photo I posted, in my view, that says it came before yours.


    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is stamp positioning..

    From what I understand, the earlier bars all had horizontal stamping on the front, with the later bars having vertical stamping.

    If yours is earlier than the AllEngelhard I posted, why would PM do all horizontal, then switch over to partial vertical ("1 KILO 999"), then switch back to all horizontal again, then switch back to all vertical again?
     
  8. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    Ask the audiences...

    Mr Tozak said which came first C or D???


    My versions
    Which came first the Chicken or The Egg???
     
  9. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    Mr Tozak

    Do you have Gatitos kilo bar to compare?

    Anyone else??? Have the Both bars??? For comparison...
     
  10. ironwood

    ironwood Active Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Louisiana
    The wood box itself is nice. It looks like it was made from one piece of wood that was sliced in half. The bar looks almost custom fit. It would have taken time to craft it. Certainly does not compare with the laminated jobs of today.
    Looks like it could be a type of pine??? The craftsmanship adds to the "specialness" of the bar. Perhaps suggesting it was a gift.
     
  11. tozak

    tozak Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,987
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Australia
    No it has nothing to do with me 'wanting' it to be series 1, if it was I would have just stuck it up on eBay and just claimed it to be series 1 along with some made up bs story. I put it up on here instead for constructive criticism as I'm just genuinely after more incite to the history of the PM 1 kilo bars.

    The vertical positioning is interesting now that you mention it, what does that mean? I also don't know?

    Clearly the bar you posted earlier better compares to a 'Type D' and the bar I posted to a 'Type C' and as Chip says 'what does that exactly mean?' I myself don't know if the 'C' came before the 'D', I would take a guess that it does going from the design but I have no proof to back up either claim.

    I think Chips point now about the 'Zero' is making more sense to me, Type H, A, B, C all have a '0' shaped zero where Type D has a 'O' shaped zero
     
  12. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
  13. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    Tozak bar go with C variety, Gatito bar go with D variety.


    Anyone up for a challenge , proven me wrong ?
     
  14. clear

    clear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,145
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    WA

    brilliant
     
  15. clear

    clear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,145
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    WA
    The tozak bar may be the first kilo bar ever produced but the Gatito Bandito style bar is way more rarer - very few of these bars have survived.
     
  16. Miloman

    Miloman Active Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    +1

    This is exactly my thoughts.

    Still I think tozak having the first serial is awesome. I'd like to own it.
     
  17. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    The facts, these D bars have a short life production. Not many have been produced up until they bring out the Type F Style


    Good for you MILOMAN ;)
     
  18. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,373
    Likes Received:
    20
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    US
    It's now officially Type F.. Case closed! :D

    [​IMG]
     
  19. serial

    serial Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,798
    Likes Received:
    937
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    wa
    Wow and I thought penny varieties are hard to figure out.
    You silver bar aficionados are crazy!:)
    Love the case however and low numbered items are cool
     
  20. Golden ChipMunk

    Golden ChipMunk Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Perth, Jupiter, Venus, Mars
    Gatito,

    I thought you would like to ask or want to know - Why the Kilo bar stamped Vertically and also Horizontally...



    The Case have been solved at this stage. Between the two variety Type C & Type D Kilo

    Someone might bring out some older bar yet to be unseen.

    I have seen more unseen bars. ( 5 oz, 10 oz, 20 oz, 1 kilo, 50 oz & the 100 oz )

    I believe there are also Blank with serial number Like Tozak Bar out there.

    Anyone have such bar or unknown variety, yet to be define or not sure of which variety can ....
    Contact CHIP ;)
     

Share This Page