Discussion in 'Stocks & Derivatives' started by petey, Dec 1, 2013.
So obviously we're not on the same page.
What do you (my critics) think im saying here?
Exactly. No different to a regular "ethical investment" fund. Consider the following prohibitions from one of the bigger Aussie ethical funds:
The fund won't invest in companies that:
"i. pollute land, air or water
ii. destroy or waste non-recurring resources
iii. extract, create, produce, manufacture, or market materials, products, goods or services which have a harmful effect on humans, non-human animals or the environment
iv. market, promote or advertise, products or services in a misleading or deceitful manner
v. create markets by the promotion or advertising of unwanted products or services
vi. acquire land or commodities primarily for the purpose of speculative gain
vii. create, encourage or perpetuate militarism or engage in the manufacture of armaments
viii. entice people into financial overcommitment
ix. exploit people through the payment of low wages or the provision of poor working conditions
x. discriminate by way of race, religion or sex in employment, marketing, or advertising practices
xi. contribute to the inhibition of human rights generally."
Other than all of the usual reasons you might choose not to invest in a REIT (concerns about occupancy amongst them, though not specific to sharia funds), the only additional reasons you might avoid sharia funds is a more limited investment universe meaning profits will be harder to come by and higher compliance costs to make sure none of what you invest in breaches the rules set up for the fund.
For some people, the forgone invetment opportunities and additional compliance costs are worth it for the social benefits gained.
Watch the video I posted above
"How is Sabana REIT shariah-compliant?
Sabana REIT complies with a number of Shariah guidelines. Amongst these is one that stipulates that its total income from lessees, tenants and or sub-tenants engaging in non-permissible activities under the Shariah Law - which include those relating to conventional financial and insurance services, gaming, non-halal production, tobacco-related products, non-permitted entertainment activities and stock-broking in non-compliant securities collectively the non-permissible activities does not exceed 5% per annum of the gross revenue of Sabana's portfolio of properties. This 5% threshold is stricter than the 10% threshold requirement of a Malaysian Islamic REIT. The 5% threshold also complies with the GCC standard, which means funds from the Gulf countries could invest in Sabana REIT.
Another requirement is that Sabana REIT must ensure that its financing, investment and deposit facilities are shariah-compliant where commercially available.
Raja Mohamad, founder and managing director of Five Pillars Pte Ltd, which completed the Shari'ah compliance audit on 24 October 2011 its first audit since listing - certified that Sabana has complied with its shariah requirements. "Sabana REIT has stayed true to its objective to be Shari'ah compliant, with the non-permissible income much lower than the typical 5% allowed under the GCC standards."
Sabana REIT's next Shari'ah compliant certification is expected to be completed by 24 October 2012."
5% threshhold for 'Non-permissable', which means it doesnt really mean 'non-permissable" then does it?
And the true definitions of 'non-halal production', 'non-permitted entertainment' are important to clarify (yes that includes pornography, bars and other things but its not restricted to!) - I am sure you dont fully realise this implication.
Also 'non-halal' basically means non-muslim - so restricting the use of land and descriminating against non-muslims whatever business they run.
Halal food we all know, but 'halal' simply means lawfull and is not limited to 'food'
There is halal sex which can be between a muslim man and his wife, a muslim man and his female slave, a muslim man and his female captives (wether she is married or not, and doesnt have to be consentual according Islamic law).
"Islamic fiance is bad because Muslims do bad stuff and I have a YouTube video of someone else saying it's bad too".
Ill assume you're being serious.
So where do you get this from?
What makes what I'm saying reduce down to this, and not be obvious I'm talking about a system of law called Shariah.
Im just sick of fighting with people.
Help me out here.
How can I talk about the the issues with Islamic Shariah law, without people thinking I'm saying I have issues with Muslim people?
I can talk about Western law, and people don't assume Im speaking directly about the people who are in this forum who live in a western country.
So how can I do the same with Islamic law?
Please, help me.
Slightly off topic but...
An Interesting documentary I saw once Reel Bad Arabs was a real eye opener on the way Muslims and Arabs in general have been portrayed in movies for the last 40 years. They are played as easily fooled, Violent and usually pointing guns at children, or things to that effect.
From the evil Disney character in Aladdin to an odd scene in a Rom Com where at the movies they see Muslims shooting people. There was also a case of two Israeli/American producers who made 20 + blatantly racist action movies during the 80's.
My point is that their has been a thorougher besmirching of an entire race/religion of people to all of us Western viewers who even if sub consciously have drank it up
I guess after the cold war they needed to have a new enemy and now any Middle Eastern person in conflict is quickly linked with Al-qaeda.
The hilarious part is this (lets be realistic) invisible enemy has given our governments apparent cause to quash so many civil liberties one is left to wonder who the real enemy is.
this is as funny as someone here on SS saying 'I'll stack long term US dollars and will retire on my investment'. Before becoming an 'expert' on any topic read enough on it first. And if you are trying to really find the truth whether something is good or bad when learning about it try to keep an open mind.
Well, we're talking about a specific part of sharia law that governs financial matters and it doesn't seem like you know very much about that particular aspect of it.
For example, where you said
, it doesn't sound like you're aware of several types of Islamic financial arrangements that have direct Western equivalents. Murabahah is essentially a hire purchase, for example, and Mudarabah is a pretty straightforward deal for raising venture capital (and having done that myself in the past I can appreciate the simplicity of being able to say "Has to be a halal mudarabah contract, now let's talk about the idea" because the amount of bullsh** involved in negotiating terms is just ridiculous.)
Every time someone on the forum bangs on about "greedy banksters making us all debt slaves" they'd do well to see what the Islamic perspective is because the Islamic economic model is specifically designed to promote trade and entrepreneurial efforts, discourages rent-seeking and asset hoarding, flat out bans loan sharks and comes with a list of weird-arse looking requirements that actually make total sense if you were to apply them to the debt-based economy we live in. They actually have acceptable debt-equity ratios defined in religious law so the bankers have to pay attention to what they're doing instead of just leveraging up to the max and playing the derivatives market...which is gambling and that's banned anyway too.
Honestly, if you were to do a bit more reading into it I think you'd probably appreciate both the social justice aspects of an economic model based on religious morality and the fact that there's also a lot of room for making a profit too. In fact, it's encouraged.
Great introductory book: Islamic Finance in a Nutshell: A Guide for Non-Specialists
It seems like your assuming what I know is not relevant compared to what you know
i dont know if you know it but you being on this site as well as everyone else is kind of following the very financial law you say we should be opposed to. Being a member of silverstackers means you believe in gold and silver as money and not fiat as you save your wealth in it. Paper money is not really allowed for the very reason most of us started stacking; someone gets the wealth and you are left with a piece of paper that looses purchasing power.
So if you are saying to oppose Sharia financial law vehemently that means you are also saying no to stacking silver gold but rather fiat or something else
Surprised Sharia is such a hot topic. We are currently exploring a Sharia compliant gold storage product with an OS bank. Reason they want to deal with us is because Sharia does not allow you to sell something you don't have, ie no paper gold. I thought that was a positive but seems if we call it Sharia it is suddenly "bad"?
I would be interested in this!
If you were a woman name one country that has Sharia law that you would like to live in. Quite frankly being tolerant of one of the most intolerant scams that has perpetuated human suffering wherever it goes is incredibly on the nose. Islam is a religion of peace and a stack of dead bodies! Reality testifies to that... while were here add secular humanism and roman Catholicism to the abominable mix
Bron, when the root is totalitarian, the fruit is addictive.
please watch the two videos i posted -
Would be interesting to plot quality of life vs % population Islamic... but alas
Countries not listed
Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:48:826
Seriously, only a stupid halfwit idiot... sorry I will not tollerate this verbal vomit
Interesting to see people having bible quote on their signature putting down other religion in a thread supposed to talk about a financial investment ???
I can easily google "Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Buddhism is bad" and paste stuff on this forum. (Rewind: The OP's thread was about a financial instrument, not religion) Don't just go about reading the stuff you see on the Internet without doing more in-depth research to ascertain the truth from the junk out there.
Perhaps if you're so good at googling, you can find out quotes about close-mindedness, like this one below:
"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture."
Thomas Paine, The American Crisis
Yes due diligence would suggest that investing in a financial fund that can unnull any contract (Qur'an (9:3)) just because of your religion and lie to you (taqiyya and kitman) just because of your religion would be foolhardy
Separate names with a comma.