Is it me or do you also see it this way? I have come to the belief that the top 2 third party grading (TPG) companies (PCGS and NGC) are moving past the respectable and needed realm of coin and medal grading and pushing the envelope of propaganda with their creepy and dishonest gimmicks like claiming "First Strike" (which of course, there is no way that the TPG could tell which coins were or weren't actually struck first at the Mint) and promoting as an important valuation-increaser the different varieties of labels that they just happen to apply on their slabs....as if one stupid inconsequential label rather than another is worth paying a premium for. For example, I've been seeing ads by dealers here in the States promoting as something that you must not miss, "special baseball labels"....when in actuality, there's nothing at all special about a label they create that they apply to their own slabs. Who are they kidding? To me, it's propaganda. I'm all for independent authentication and grading of coins and medals by experts...but about these duplicitous labels...to me that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You too? .
" "Propaganda is neutrally defined as a systematic form of purposeful persuasion that attempts to influence the emotions, attitudes, opinions, and actions of specified target audiences for ideological, political or commercial purposes through the controlled transmission of one-sided messages (which may or may not be factual) via mass and direct media channels." They are businesses, trying to increase revenue. In addition to your points, they also grade and card rounds. Seems a bit strange, and probably being scoffed at by the purists. You make good points. But in the end, they are businesses acting in their best interest, let the buyer beware, Caveat emptor . Standards and grading systems are always in flux, changing, don't mean today what they meant a few years ago. This is just another piece of the consumerism pie. It does not offend or bother me, but then I'm only just now getting to understand it. If I had been using it for decades, I may think they are trashing the "system". Even so, it is their system, to do as they please. They, together with private mints, are attempting to create wealth, to make one unit of silver worth more than another. It seem to me this happens often, especially with 'collectables'.
Okay, of course I get that but here's the problem and why you may not understand why it is a problem: when collectors are selling their slabbed coins, if potential buyers can be manipulated by other sellers and dealers peddling those gimmicky TPG company labels to place additional value on a non-special 'special' label, then you are going to be losing sales to all those people who have been hooked by the propaganda (all things otherwise being equal in terms of the actual condition of the coin, the shipping cost (if any), the good reputation of the seller, etc, etc, etc). And the reason you would not be bothered is because you are not selling slabbed coins and wouldn't know that the plain PCGS label that's on your coin is being made to appear to be of lesser value. You have to remember, the average person and probably the average coin buyer are easily persuaded by gimmicks. So it's not a stretch at all to suggest that the pushing of gimmick labels will be succesful in many cases. This could hurt not only those sellers who don't bother to buy gimmick labelled coins but all sellers eventually as those same buyers buyers may eventually get it about duplicitous marketing tactics that are inundating the market.
I refuse buying graded coin unless the price is reasonable (adds to ungraded coin about $10) So there strategy is not working on me ...for those who are liking to pay huge premiums for plastic and paper - good luck
no luck needed, they're living in mansions these days. It appears that U.S. classic coins, that have a high grade, just continue to the stratosphere each and every year, or when they go for sales. It is quite astounding. I think they'll always be an appetite for a low mintage, high graded coins/medals, just the way the world turns. sure there are cycles...booms and busts, if you will. I think this is boom period.
Are we debating the need for such companies? because if so that's ridiculous, as far as I'm concerned they have earned their reputation. I think NGC is very respectable, I wouldn't dream of buying certain pandas that are not slabbed by them. If you're getting into the world of numismatics (particularly coins in the thousands) you would be an absolute fool not to respect NGC.
I don't know, do you deal in high value numismatics? if you do and you don't respect them, then you're doing it wrong. Along with PCGS they are the undisputed best graders in the game, and you'll not find a reputable dealer in high priced coins selling you something that hasn't been looked at by either party. Their mark guarantees your investment stays valuable, because it is a mark any potential buyer will trust when the time comes to sell. They didn't become juggernauts by just accepting coins and putting them in capsules, video below proves that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M75GZeKZb38 watch from 14:30
It's not propaganda. Just a marketing gimmick. Kinda like saying "no more than xxx coins will be issued in this packaging" or "only xx coins will be issued with a numbered COA". Sounds familiar?
Nothing is good anymore in the non china coin business only china medals are collectable it seems talk about propaganda.
I can come up with a list of reasons as to why they are not reputable, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything to indicate that they are reputable - unless you count being able to sell a lot of product, which I don't. #1 - Pay for grade: bulk submissions are actually charged by the grade to my understanding, so a 70 costs more than a 69. Seems that TPGs would have good reason to grade a lot of 70s. :| #2 - Blind grading process?: We are somehow supposed to believe that the graders don't know who's coins they are grading, but dealers are able to have their own exclusive labels? That just seems completely contradictory. #3 - A former high ranking grader at NGC is now one of their larger customers with their offices extremely close to each other. Somehow this company is able to pre-sell graded coins that don't even exist yet. I find it very hard to believe that they can guarantee an exact coin/grade/label when they don't even have said coins from the mint yet! #4 - Where's the oversight? We're just supposed to take them at their word that a 70 is a 70? Even after seeing 70s with large scratches on them? Makes me think they are doing little more than removing coins from their tube/capsule and placing it in a slab without even looking at it - there are supposedly multiple graders looking at every single coin right? #5 - Someone please explain to me how between the top 2 TPGs there were about 30,000 graded 1oz 2014 Pandas... before we even got into 2014. My best guess is that they have a room full of low paid laborers moving coins directly from capsule to slab without even looking at them, which would be a reason for the occasional scratched 70. I equate NGC & PCGS to Bernie Madoff, eventually their walls will come crumbling down.
Some very detailed, and logical arguments against the grading companies. I definitely think the grading of coins is non level playing field. The APMEX's of the world can 'pay' their way to the grade. I mean seriously, how much does APMEX and MCM pay NGC yearly vs. me, the little guy who sends in one or 2 or 3, you know? Of course I get the crumbs. What about the baseball 'first strike' graded coins. I mean those came out pretty quick too. So, DB you come up with great points.
Every time when it come to the money you can be sure of (at least) one thing. A lot of bulls**t will fly around. I don't have any graded coin. I would buy some maybe, depends on the price. And coin. Positive thing I see is that you have some guarantee that coin is the real silver and not some cheap crap made out of something else. Since I'm Norfed fan I would like to get some graded ones. Why: because some of the coins are extremely hard to get and supposedly only few will be graded by company which is currently doing this: ANACS. I last year, especially after the crisis, PM became much more popular. A lot of BS can be found, since some sensed their "lifetime" opportunity to get some money.
My initial complaint wasn't about the authentication and grading services provided by TPG companies....it was about these gimmicky labels they put on the slabs that dealers are now promoting as having added value. That's the shit that troubles me. I am all in favor of the authentication and grading service that reputable TPG companies provide. Marketing these services is fine...nothing wrong with that at all. But when they start promoting their gimmick labels as if they had any added value is when I call it propaganda because it goes way past marketing a needed service and goes into the realm of misleading people and potentially taking sales away from those sellers who do not want to subsidize such propaganda. Gimmick labels include (and not limited to some of these): "First Strike" or similar 'Joe Blow from the US Mint Signature' "Special" Baseball label or similar "Golden" colored label (or similar) "25th Anniversary Black label" or similar It's the promotion of that sort of bullshit that has real potential to harm sellers in the secondary market All they need to do to provide good authenticating, grading, and slabbing service is on a hard-to-counterfeit label, identify what coin is in the slab, put a goddamn grade to it and put it in a high quality slab...that's it...nothing more! .
It appears you opened some festering wounds. LOL. It turned from, hey, this label crap is just that B.S. LOL. What about the genuine 'Australian label' I have on my gilded 2010 tigers...that has to add an additional thousand to the grade? hehehe
Speaking of labels... MCM is selling the baseball coins graded by NGC with "Signatures" of Nolan Ryan and Cal Ripken Jr - or are they? "This coin is in the NGC Cal Ripken, JR Hall of Fame label. The signature is printed and not an actual hand signature."
Yes, that's exactly the type of crap I am talking about. Maybe my anger is partly pointed in the wrong direction...maybe it's not NGC or PCGS that is dreaming up some of these nonsensical labels....maybe it's dealers who pay the TPG to stick them on? I actually don't know what the genesis of some of those labels are. I know the "First Strike" types and the "25th Anniversary of the black label" types of gimmick labels are a direct product of the TPG companies but I'm not so sure about some of these phoney signature labels. .
