NGC PCGS OMP (Original Mint Packaging)

Guys there is a thread at CCF along these same lines regarding NGC PCGS OMP so I figured I would get something going here in order to get some feedback, good ideas & keep the issues regarding NGC, PCGS & OMP in one thread instead of the differences unintentionally spilling out in many other threads.

I write this admittedly biased in a favorable view towards NGC but have done so utilizing personal experience, facts gleaned from NGC & PCGS census data, opinions of knowledgeable CCF members & communication with large, reputable & respected Modern Chinese Collectors.

Regarding the assertions of recent heightened scrutiny from NGC poconopen at CCF gives a logical & valid explanation of what is going on and why this has been going on at both grading companies (PCGS & NGC) since their inception and it makes a lot of sense. You can read his recent post about it on CCF.

I don't typically buy into everything that everyone says but if there is anyone that I believe EVERYTHING they say about coins/grading it is poconopen. He is the most knowledgeable person that I am aware of in this arena of Modern Chinese Coins and I'm sure Mr. Peter Anthony would adamantly agree.

I once said this in a post at CCF and I still stand behind it "When I look for wisdom along with rational & logical thinking, I have to look no further than a post poconopen submits"

Anyway regarding the grading companies I notice people tend to either defend the grading company that they use and trust while sometimes attack the grading company that they do not use or like. I have to refrain from this nonsensical behavior myself at times as it's useless, non productive and I am guilty of it myself. Everyone has their preferences and they should be respected for it.

Today I communicated with an extremely high level MCC collector in the USA who I will reveal later (some of you may be familiar with him, I'm sure Peter Anthony knows him) but he has been collecting/investing in MCC for many years and has worked closely with NGC for several years. This collector has MCC's of high value that would make us all drool. This collector did say that regarding United States Coins, PCGS does have the edge/advantage but when it comes to Modern Chinese Coins in his words "NGC is far ahead hands down". He also advised me that when grading my MCC's, it is wise to use NGC. He went on to tell me that NGC makes several trips a year to work closely with the Chinese Mints to properly identify the voluminous amount of Chinese Coins/ Medals. He has worked closely with NGC and has accomplished grading a specific set of Chinese Medals for the first time ever ! I was informed today that there are several MCC silver/brass/bronze/copper issues that are not listed in any coin books and have never been graded but are currently being certified. Look for several sets of Chinese Medals over the next weeks and months that will be graded/certified for the first time ever. They are currently being certified by NGC, more information to follow

In communication today with NGC I was informed that they are working on the new attributes for the S10Y 2003 Chinese Pandas as well as new attributes for the S10Y 1993 Chinese Panda ("Frosted", Unfrosted"). They are also in the process of recognizing new attributes for other MCC's such as the 1993 Ying and Yang Philosophy 10Y, and 1993 Ying and Yang Philosophy 5Y frosted and mirrored symbol sling along with several others that will soon be added to their attribution program.

There are many good things coming from both of the grading companies but in my collection I just prefer NGC for several reasons. There are some who prefer PCGS and that's great as well, as has been stated many times competition is a good thing. Those who prefer OMP have their motives and I respect their position. Listed below are positives and negatives related to NGC, PCGS & OMP.

NGC Positives:

1. NGC coins have attributes listed on the holder going back a few years, much longer than PCGS.

2. The coins that NGC has graded for me have been beautifully conserved, graded & holdered, I'm not a grader but I am good enough to see that what I own is definitely deserving of 69 grades and will be very liquid when the time comes to sell.

3. NGC has graded a tremendous amount more of Modern Chinese Coins than PCGS and therefore has been exposed to more MCC's which gives them the edge on experience. They know what they are looking at as they see it more frequently.

4. NGC has conservation and does it very well, PCGS is talking of starting this conservation (very late in the game) but I wouldn't want my coins to be their "Guinea Pig" or "Lab Rat"

5. It's only a small issue but the NGC holder frames coins beautifully where you can see the entire coin. If you have a great work of art, make sure it's sitting in a gorgeous frame ! NGC holder is superior IMO.

6. The majority of large MCC dealers/collectors use NGC, if their $5,000 to $1,000,000 coins are trusted in NGC holders so are mine !

7. I recently mentioned the Champion Auction for example it appeared to me that 95% of the MCC were all NGC. I had to look hard to even find a PCGS holdered coin. There were many of these NGC coins being auctioned (I posted a list at CCF) that were in the $50,000 to $100,000 range. Again, if it's good enough for the heavy hitters it gives me confidence I am using the right company.

8. The Smithsonian Institute is the world's largest museum with over 136 million items archived in its collection. This museum exclusively utilizes NGC and its sister companies (NCS, PMG, CGC) to authenticate and preserve its historical artifacts. The confidence that the Smithsonian has exuded in NGC aids in substantiating my confidence in NGC.

9. I recently posted about the millions of dollars in shipwreck treasure recovered from the vessel The SS Republic, this treasure was conserved, certified, graded & holdered with NGC which again reassures me that high value items/coins are entrusted to NGC which only substantiates my confidence. This is not the only high value shipwreck treasure that NGC has conserved and graded.

10. Since I am first a collector and potentially an investor years down the road, when the day comes that I may sell some of my MCC's I want to have my coins holdered by the company that is dominate in this specific area of coin grading. I know that when I am scanning ebay for coins that I want to potentially buy, I can expediently go through the list when I come across a string of 20 or more PCGS coins because I just scan right past them without looking. How many other collectors/investors do this? I don't know but I'm sure those who are exclusive NGC do this on occasion. The bottom line is in my opinion an MCC will sell more efficiently with NGC.

11. Badon & Tamo42 are infinitely more knowledgeable than I am regarding MCC and their preference is NGC which just substantiates my position further. Yennus is the big player and leader here on SS and I have a lot of confidence in him as well. I think he wisely chose the best company for his beautiful coins from an investment stand point and I will hopefully buy some of his graded coins in the future because he has phenomenal numismatics graded by an experienced grading company who is very familiar with what they are looking at.

12. The majority of high value coins sold at CCF are NGC coins. One of my recent purchases was from a CCF member who admitted on open forum that the reason some of his coins sold slowly (or not at all) were due to PCGS holdered coins. (I did manage to snag a very nice Gold Panda G100 NGC MS69 2004 20th Anniversary Bank from him at a great price !)

13. NGC/NCS has exceptional customer service. They have always been extremely helpful via phone call or through email.

14. Graded cons have been authenticated as genuine, yes there are fake slabs but they are easily identified and the NGC certified coin can be visually validated on their website.

15. IMO the bottom line is that I believe my MCC and yours will be more liquid with NGC

PCGS Positives:

1. PCGS has been around for a long time and have an excellent reputation grading US and many other world coins.

2. PCGS has finally started recognizing MCC's that have various attributes and are now identifying them.

3. PCGS has a solid holder that I believe does a very good job at protecting the coin it holders.

4. Excellent customer service. I have a PCGS membership as well and they have been extremely amiable and helpful to deal with.

5. PCGS keeps the competition at a high level which is good for all collectors/investors.

6. Graded cons have been authenticated as genuine, yes there are fake slabs but they are easily identified and the PCGS certified coin can be validated on their website (not visually)

OMP Positives:

1. The coin is in the original state as it was the date it was minted complete with seals, COA & packaging.

2. Some collectors prefer OMP

3. Coins can be acquired at a lower price allowing very good deals on OMP coins.

4. The reward potential can be higher on OMP coins that are planned for grading in which the chances of breaking even or profiting is greater than the odds of losing value (IMO).

5. Very nice coins can be acquired from reputable dealers/sellers like those here on SS & CCF.

NGC Negatives:

1. NGC needs to distinguish on the holder label coins that have been conserved.

2. NGC needs to reach out to more foreign countries to make shipping, conservation & grading more accessible to collectors/investors.

PCGS Negatives:

1. PCGS has Less experience grading Modern Chinese Coins, they have graded only a fraction of ALL MCC's, not just pandas.

2. Only recently begin recognizing attributes so there are literally 1000's of MCC's floating around with generic labels for example "1990 S10Y Chinese Panda" instead of "1990 S10Y Chinese Panda-Large Date"

3. While PCGS holder protects the coin very well, IMO the holder is not appealing at all and even the new "edge viewer" which allows for edge viewing, is substandard to NGC for overall aesthetics of the coin.

4. PCGS allows a graded coin to be validated via their website but unlike NGC there is no picture to get a visual confirmation.

OMP Negatives:

1. Although coins in OMP can remain pristine for a very long time, this can only be accomplished by not handling the coins frequently. We have all seen "the forehead rub" and other anomalies on coins caused by friction against its capsule as the coin rattles around.

2. Handling OMP frequently causes the soft outer plastic to become "tacky" and "opaque" which distorts a clear view of the coin.

3. In today's world of grading coins, a person cannot be sure if indeed the coin is original OMP. It is highly possible that unscrupulous dealers/sellers may remove lower grade coins from their holder and "reseal" back in its original OMP with a heat sealer.

4. Some very large MCC dealers have admittedly removed coins from OMP and "wash" or "bake" them then reseal them, sometimes not even in the correct packaging from the associated Chinese Mint. Some dealers claim they will acknowledge this but only if asked if the coin has been resealed. The problem is then exponentially compounded as coins like this are passed from person to person. Eventually these coins can end up in the hands of a person who does not know the coin has been resealed. Coins of this nature are not true OMP but are sold as OMP.

5. The coin is not verified/certified as authentic which can be risky on high value coins.

6. High value MCC sets such as Goldfish, Pagodas and Historical Figures have extremely well made counterfeits that have been seen recently. I would hesitate and be very cautious purchasing any of these in OMP unless from a much respected dealer. I have been looking at these sets and will more than likely purchase them graded.
This post is not meant to ridicule or disparage anyone regardless of their preferences with NGC, PCGS or OMP collections. I have always maintained the position to do what makes you happy and comfortable with your collection. For the collector there is no "right" or "wrong".

As admitted in the beginning of this post it is favorably biased towards NGC because it is my opinion and that of many MCC dealers that NGC is superior when it relates to the grading of Modern Chinese Coins. The opinions of others will obviously differ but these are mine and the views of others will be interesting and welcome.

Now there is a thread to discuss the agreements and differences between NGC, PCGS & OMP and hopefully prevent other threads from deteriorating completely off topic into a grading company battle which unfortunately happens frequently at CCF although it is a very beneficial and informative forum just as Silver Stackers is.

Happy Collecting !!!

 

Is this Fu Lu Shu 1993?

From your descriptions the guy who graded some new medals must either be Badon or Jay

The MCC world is rather small.

ps. Historical figures are not high value sets yet; at least compared to Goldfish. My goldfish set cost $2400 US but historical figure sets can be had for under $1000 (except 1992).

pps. Nothing above has anything to do with grading but yeah. I think some coin collectors will always prefer PCGS or NGC or OMP, it is a matter of preference. However being graded it becomes easier to sell in the future because there doesn't need to be so much verification beforehand unlike OMP. Expensive OMP coins usually sell well in auction houses where people can verify for themselves the coin quality and whether or not it's legit. OMP also sells on eBay but it is my belief that even at a final bid of $10000 the prices for an OMP coin may not be fully realized on eBay.

 

Very informative post Comeaux, thanks

Do you have the example of 1993 frosted, non frosted panda?
Does this new variety comes as sub-variety of large date, or small date?
i.e.
small date frosted, small date unfrosted
or
large date frosted, large date unfrosted

 

I'm not sure at all about point 11, but everything else seems right. Good write up!

 

Great post.

IMO, I'd add fees to the negatives though. Both NGC/NCS and PCGS want to nickel and dime members for everything. I also suspect prices will continue to increase.

The $8 "handling fee" per submission form really gets me, though. I also think attribute fees are a bit ridiculous.

 

Great Post Comeaux ! I have been thinking about this type of thing lately too , I personally totally agree with your comparisons , of course I could not have written it up so well nor do I have your level of experience. Thanks for your excellent imput , it certainly helps make this such a great place!

 

Thanks guys yes I'm sure I missed some valid points but tried to capture as much as possible. I didn't intend for it to be this long but the more I typed the longer it got

I probably lost some focus along the way as I was attempting to keep my 14 month old content and wifey was on my butt to do get off of the computer and do something productive !

Obviously this was from my point of view and there will be many other viewpoints from everyone but I feel it's at least 75%.

Good point derrick about the "handling charges" this kind of reminds me of the "fuel surcharges" my clients are always bitching about to me !

Fishy I'm not 100% about The Fu Lu Shu as you obviously know more about this coin than me but you can check it out on the NGC website "attributes program" to see what they have and are adding. Yea and you are right about the "high value" on the Historical Figures I should have been clearer as I was referring of the sets in a whole collection. That must have been you that snagged the goldfish set last in PF69 because when I went back today to get them they were sold last night

I haven't checked my collection yet musemellow on the 1993 but will do so and post a pic of the varieties, if I don't have one in my collection I will find a pic.

Tamo42 I have a 1991 "gold plated bronze" 3.3 oz 10th Anniversary (750 minted) that I will be submitting for grading next week. I couldn't find any that were graded as of yet, what do you know about this medal?

I have heard to not expect very high grades on the gold plated bronze medal or the solid bronze medals. I'm not really sure as I haven't graded anything brass, bronze or gold plated bronze as of yet.

Thanks to the rest of you for the comments.

 

Guys coming soon, NCS will have a certification lookup to verify is a coin has been NCS conserved !

It is not functioning yet I left a message for the manager on his voicemail as he was not in to see when it will be operational.
http://www.ncscoin.com/CertLookup/CertLookup.aspx
As soon as I hear some information as to when it will functional I will apprise all. (or you can randomly check it)


Also here is some information and pictures on the NCS Conserved Coins (sunken treasure) from the vessel SS Republic.
Looking at the pictures you can see how amazing these coins look after they have been conserved.
Not bad looking for sitting on the ocean floor for 150 years !
http://www.ngccoin.com/shipwreck-coin-certification/ssrepublic-coin-grading-gallery.aspx


This is another amazing picture of what NCS can accomplish after a house fire !


NCS_Numismatic Conservation Services

 

wow interesting pictures! I hope no ones coins here ever end up like that! I know it was on another thread but I just got my ncs conserved coins and indeed they all begin with a "3" , but looking through some others I do have a ngc graded 2002 panda that begins with a 3 that has toning on the rim so I dont think it has ever been conserved so maybe it could be that conserved coins begin with a 3 but just because it does begin with a 3 does not necisarily mean it has been conserved? or it is just random ?

 

The conclusion for now (when we have a conserved coin with diferent begin number will change it).
Is all conserved coins begin with 3.
Not all coins begin with 3 are conserved.

 

Intriguing. This has been on the NCS site for some time; it works for coins that are in NCS holders and provides details like "improper cleaning" etc. It does not work for coins that were sent to NCS, conserved and then graded and holdered by NGC. Where did you see/hear that this registry will include conserved/NGC slabbed coins?

 

Yea Derrick I agree as I saw this link a good while back but really gave it no attention as all the coins I had submitted were done so by me so I had no reason to check it. After seeing recent questions about identifying NCS coins I went back to this site and tried again. After no success retrieving NCS conserved coins I contacted Tommy Barth at NCS and discussed it with him pointing out the statement on the NCS site as follows

"This tool will allow you to enter the certification number of an NCS Coin and look up the details of that Coin in the NCS database. Please enter the certification number of the Coin exactly as it appears on the label and hit submit."

He told me that the intention was as it is stated which is to ascertain which coins have been NCS conserved. He tried it himself a few times and transferred me to his manager's voicemail as he was out of the office (it was about 5:15 pm EST) and they close at 5:30.

Well anyway I left a message so I'm interested what the answer is it would be excellent if they actually intent to identify NCS coins through this site lookup

 

Yes Derrick stated this the other day and it's more accurate than what I originally stated.

My original statement was if your coin began with a "3" then it was more likely than not ... NCS conserved.

Derricks statement of every coin that begins with a "3" may not necessarily been conserved but every coin that has been NCS conserved starts with "3" is probably more accurate.

 

Would be helpful. They obviously have some record of what coins were conserved then transferred to NGC. I wonder if they will actually take the time to cross-reference all of the numbers and include them under this registry. I still don't understand why conserved coins aren't simply slabbed in the NCS holder to begin with; that would be the easiest and clearest solution, at least IMO.

 

IIRC, it's just the standard big 10th anniversary design, but in bronze.

Bronze and copper usually don't grade well.

 

Derrick you were correct

I finally talked to NCS Operations Manager Craig Fiumara (I think that was his last name) and he confirmed that Tommy Barth had given me incorrect information and that the NCS search was only for coins that were previously slabbed by NCS when they used to do it.

He said there are no current plans to recognize NCS coins via search on the NCS website but that it has been discussed.

 

Yeah, Craig is a decent guy to speak with; always seemed upfront and transparent when I've had questions for him. The whole thing with not recognizing conserved coins bothers me a little; it's almost like they want to hide that graded coins have been conserved. I know there are a lot of mixed feelings about conservation, but it seems that true, professional conservation is desirable more than it ever was. There's obviously a demand amongst collectors to know. Hopefully they come to a decision on recognition sooner than later.

Personally, I wouldn't mind either having my conserved coins slabbed with the NCS label, or adding some sort of designation to the NGC label. I think I would almost prefer to have NCS slabs. They obviously still use the NCS label for details grades, not sure why they won't use them for the numerical MS/PF grades.

 

This an interesting subject, I wonder what the majority of people think of the conservation. When i first saw listings of coins that stated they were conserved I actually thought there must be something wrong with them so I stayed away. Now that i know more about it ,it is a desirable thing but I wonder if it turns other people off that do not understand it. I also wonder what is is that they do that will prevent tarnish and spotting in the future maybe it is too early to know but it will be interesting to see how these coins hold up in 10 or 20 years.

 

A lot of "old-school" dealers I chat with consider them "doctored". Some don't/didn't realize that NCS and NGC are part of the same parent. This one dealer I buy from frequently had some gold pandas with PVC damage. I told him to send them to NCS. His reply was something along the lines of, 'if I decide to send them to NGC or PCGS after, they'll return them for being cleaned.' I'm not really sure about too many individuals' opinions. Seems the majority on this forum favor it.

You'll see a lot of mixed opinions on the matter overall. I think it will always come down to preference and opinion.

I've seen some really beautifully toned coins. I can imagine that many MCCs would look pretty amazing with some rainbow toning. But, no one knows if/how a coin will tone, so either you take a chance and leave it, or you conserve it to *hopefully* maintain the shiny state it originally came in.

 

Here is my "two cents" ...

Of course there may be a difference of opinions and I respect each and every one but all of the MCC dealers that I buy coins from utilize and encourage NCS Conservation as I do as well. I have never heard one of these guys refer to NCS Conservation as "doctoring". I personally am an avid supporter of conservation. I can see the "old schoolers" pedaling old war nickels and Indian heads aligned with this "doctor" thinking that's their opinion and right to it but many of these people may be uneducated as to what NCS conservation is and its intention.

I did just a little bit of research on "coin doctoring" and what NCS does technically does not align with doctoring by the definition of PCGS & NGC.

"Doctoring is practiced in several ways. Three of the major methods are artificial toning, surface alteration, and etching"

As stated at the NCS website "NCS does not perform repairs or mechanical alterations of any kind. Removing detrimental material from the surface of an item may dramatically improve its appearance and eye appeal. This service is designed to further preserve the originality of the material only and prevent the damage that can result from contamination that is left untreated."

PCGS also states that "Not all coins that have been altered by chemicals are considered doctored. No matter how the results are achieved, many coins have been improved by judicious cleaning with commercial dips, solvents, or plain soap and water. PCGS grades many coins that have had their surfaces altered by the removal of "problems," perceived or otherwise. The coins it does not grade are the ones altered by adding substances to the surface or altering the surfaces by physical methods."

Badon at CCF has posted a lot of great information about NCS conservation and its benefits as have many of the most knowledgeable CCF members in support of it as well so that and their reasoning just reaffirm my position. Many coins at the very least have some minor amount of oil or residues deposited on the coin surface from the minting process that may negatively impact the appearance of the coin in future years, NCS Conservation will remove this along with PVC residues that may be present on the coins surface and then preserve the coin from future degradation.

I can attest by experience that I have not had any issues arise on any coins that have been NCS conserved but I do have one or coins that may have developed slight toning and these were not conserved. Two days ago I received my first "Shipwreck" coin from the SS Republic, it is an 1858 O seated Liberty Half Dollar that was NCS conserved and slabbed in 2003/2004 and I can tell you the coin looks amazing after 10 years in its holder. After 150 years sitting on the ocean bottom in saltwater, NCS has done a phenomenal job to preserve this coin. I just sent it back to NGC today to get re-holdered.

With reference to toning on Modern Chinese Coins toning is not considered a positive aesthetic, it does not enhance the coins value at all and will actually make it difficult to sell. If it does sell it will at a lower price so why not take measures to prevent it if possible?

Here is a quote from respected CCF member "dragondollar" who is highly regarded for his numismatic knowledge which is light years ahead of mine "I don't think toning is valued on modern coins. Modern coins were never made for circulation, therefore toning is unnatural. Their natural state is pristine, straight out of the mint. However, an ancient coin natural state is to be marked by the decades it went through - a pristine old coin looks unnatural. So, toning is valued for old coins. Most collectors feel that way, usually. Investor may prefer their older coins to be pristine as well

As I previously stated if the largest museum in the world (Smithsonian Institute) along with 1000's of MCC collectors/dealers entrusts NCS to conserve/preserve their artifacts/coins, it gives me confidence that I am doing the right things with my collection. Just my opinion

To conserve or not to conserve have it your way and be happy about it !