[NEWS] NGC Price Update

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by yennus, Mar 12, 2012.

  1. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

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    Thinking more on this the increase must be to cover the guarantee, maybe it is a good time to get the under $300 coins graded before prices go up on those.
     
  2. comeaux

    comeaux New Member Silver Stacker

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    Honestly I don't want to piss in anyone's Cheerios and I know this price increase sucks but really it's not like people don't have a choice to just go right over to PCGS or another grading company like ICG, ANACS, SGS ,NGCS, HCGS, GEC, HCGS, PNGS, INGC & WCG. I'm not endorsing these other grading companies at all, just saying there are others out there. Also if the NCS increase is the big killjoy well then just bypass this service all together and get coins graded.

    We have all heard of PCGS rumors to begin conservation if so here is a great opportunity to voice opinion over the NCS increase and move business elsewhere. It would not be out of the realm of possibilities that PCGS conservation will be somewhat aligned in pricing to NCS or at least soon after many people move over to PCGS in dissatisfaction over NGC increases.

    Anyway as much as this price increase blows, I'm not going to lose much sleep over it although in my opinion the price increase will affect the collector more than the dealer as the dealer will just pass the costs on to the buyers immediately whereas the collector will have his money tied up for much longer.

    I mentioned it in a thread the other day on CCF about how a few CCF members tend to berate some of the coin dealers who occasionally appear on the forum about their prices pushing many dealers away from the forum (Nick at Majestic Rarities, Monique at Rare Coin Collector & Clark Smith are just a few). My response to these people was simply to not buy coins from the dealers you feel are expensive, I said if you don't like someone's prices just take your business elsewhere, don't complain about it vote with your wallet :) This is what needs to be done in this NCS situation and all others.

    The bottom line is that I am just not big into complaining about things that I have little influence over. I have been dealt too many significant "raw deals" in life to really put much energy into this NCS price increase. If conserving coins becomes too much of a hindrance then I will just bypass it all together and go with grading alone. If I am submitting high value coins well then I may decide to pay extra to ensure they are conserved.

    This is just my point of view amongst the hundreds of others and by no means am I attempting to offend anyone at all and respect everyones opion. I'm just not a complainer :)
     
  3. comeaux

    comeaux New Member Silver Stacker

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    I think you are right silverstar about the guarantee and also agree about getting coins under $300 soon.
     
  4. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

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    A little off topic but what do people here think about conserving gold coins , is there much benifit to it ?
     
  5. heyimderrick

    heyimderrick Active Member

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    I think so if they show signs of PVC residue or copper spots. The ones that I had with these symptoms came back gorgeous. Otherwise if they are issue-free I personally don't bother.

    Comeaux is the master gold collector though and I am sure he will weigh in.
     
  6. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    Some interesting points:

    - Conserving Gold Pandas is now very expensive and cost prohibitive especially on the lower end of the spectrum (say 2012).
    - Coins which are NCS'd do not display the information on the slab making it difficult to recuperate the cost of conserving on resale

    Hope the big dealers make enough noise for them to reverse this stupid decision to raise prices.
     
  7. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

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    Thanks for the info , so they were able to remove the copper spots?
     
  8. heyimderrick

    heyimderrick Active Member

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    Yes copper is removable, and most PVC providing it isn't terribly severe is treatable as well. Plus they have a nicer luster after than just my plain graded gold.
     
  9. CAPITALISTPIG

    CAPITALISTPIG New Member

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    Does anyone else see a conflict of interest here? Since market value is influenced by the grade of a coin, would this tend to make NGC give a better grade? Beyond face value or melt value, ALL other premium value is SUBJECTIVE and can be influenced by grading. Would I need to estimate the grade of a coin before submitting (thus to determine fair market value)? Or if NGC assigns a MS70 to a coin, can they then "make adjustments" to the declared value?

    No one will want to estimate too high, thus raising the allready high fee. What are the guidelines for assigning a "fair market value"? I know shops where they would give you no more that 95% melt for a 2000 mirror. Or will they be using the Priceapedia to determine their fees? Retail market value? Wholesale market value? Value in the US market? Value in China market? When selling I think "fair" is higher than when I am buying. Ups and downs in the "market". This months "fair" may be too much or too little next month.

    Charging by percentage of value and then asking the coin owner and the grader to agree on a "fair market value" opens the door to uncertainty. Good Quality is often defined as "getting exactly what you expect to get". I think that this sort of ambiguity can lead to a perception of poor quality service (regardless of the integrity of NGC).

    This is a bit confusing, but it seems to me, that if NGC can base it fees on a percentage of the "fair market value", they may undermine confidence in their grading and their customer service.

    I think that NGC will loose businees because of these price increases. There is not that much difference between the NGC and PCGS. NGC has benefited from a "preference" in the MCC community, presumably because they were the first to recognize varieties. This added value that collectors see in NGC may now cost more than their slab is worth.

    But on a more positve note: Coins that are currently conserved and/or graded may now be bought at a bargain until the market adjusts to reflect what these services now cost. There are many good coins that you can find at a price that is not much more that melt plus grading fees.
     
  10. heyimderrick

    heyimderrick Active Member

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    I understand what you are saying, and maybe this pricing change will cause people to think more about how they declare the value. What I've always thought logical so far is to simply use my original purchase price + the grading fees as the declared value. Declared value is what they base the return shipping insurance off of, so I figure by doing this, if anything were to happen at least I wouldn't lose money and the coins.

    And as for them having to make pricing adjustments, they check in and evaluate your coins and charge for services before grades are assigned. I think you will see them make adjustments in cases where members blatantly undervalue high-valued coins. FMV is generally considered the replacement cost at the time of submission (at least that was the case when they honored their guarantee for some coins I sent in for review).
     
  11. tamo42

    tamo42 New Member

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    I've always declared the value of the OMP coin on my submissions. Like heyimderrick says, I think this makes sense as the insurance value.
     
  12. CAPITALISTPIG

    CAPITALISTPIG New Member

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    Thanks for the comments Derrick. One problem that I have with estimating FMV is due to a few special coins that I need to have graded. I bought some bargains (bullion price when I purchased), but depending on the grade (and the day of auction) may be now be worth 10 - 30 times the melt. I sure don't want to optimistically FMV them too high, but I am not an experienced grader. They probably need NCS due to PVC, otherwise I would just send them to PCGS. I am new to using the grading services, and things like this cause me to hesitate and reconsider the necessity. But slabbed coins tend to increase confidence, and for higher value items, the added value may justify grading and conservation (notwithstanding the fee increases). But overall I see that there are too many variables to be making confident decisions.
     
  13. heyimderrick

    heyimderrick Active Member

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    I definitely get your dilemma. The best advice I can give you is, if you're worried about PVC damage and these are highly collectible or rare coins, just send them to NCS now. As others have mentioned, the prices will likely continue to rise unless PCGS or another party can offer a comparable conservation service. From my perspective, you have more to lose by risking further PVC than paying for the increased service fees.

    I'm not sure of what value range you are in, but lets take a $1,500 fmv coin for example. If I understand how the NCS fee structure will work it's like so:

    $1500 x 1% evaluation: $15
    $1500 x 4% conservation: $60
    $1500 still qualifies for NGC World Modern service: $16.50
    Total: $91.50 (excluding sub form fee and shipping)

    On a $1,500 coin, I think we can safely assume that if it grades well you'll be able to recapture the $91.50.

    Under this fee structure, we'll all just have to evaluate the pros and cons of conservation a bit more deliberately before submitting. More than likely, if you intend to hold onto the coin for years to come then these fees won't bother you later on. If you just want to submit to flip, well then you'll have to be a little bit more careful determining if the potential for increased sale value is greater than the fees.

    As for the declared value in your situation, I would use the price you'd have to pay at the time of submission to replace the coin in its condition. Like you said, it can be complicated to value a coin based on an estimated grade if you don't quite know what to look for.
     
  14. CAPITALISTPIG

    CAPITALISTPIG New Member

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    Very good points.

    Here's an idea.
    I just found the NGC coin price guide.
    http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/World-Coin-Price-Guide.aspx
    The table of values seems to stop at MS63.
    Would it be appropriate to assign this as FMV?
    For example a 2000 frosted MS63 is listed @ $60.
    That would be more than fair in my book !!
    Anything looking close to MS63 would be well off in OMP and I would not likely send in for grading.
    This would keep the fees reasonable, and NGC would be free from any incentive to grade too high in order to fluff the fees.
     
  15. heyimderrick

    heyimderrick Active Member

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    You miss the main point; NCS/NGC charge you the service fees when they receive your coins and schedule them for grading. The grade is not yet known when they charge you, so they can't/don't change your fees based on the grades received.

    And again, what if your parcel goes astray or becomes damaged during shipping? Remember, the insurance coverage is based on the declared value. I certainly wouldn't risk losing a $1000+ coin just to save a little bit on the fees.

    For example, let's say your 2000 mirror got an MS69. That's easily a $1200-1800 coin, and usually around a $1000-1100 coin in OMP. It gets lost or damaged. Well, instead of getting back $1000+ in a claim because you declared a fair value, you'd only get back $60. You just lost $940+ because you were trying to save $40 or so on conservation and grading. Not worth it IMO.

    If the conservation fees are too cost-prohibitive, but you really want your coin graded, just send it straight to NGC and skip NCS. You can still send in coins under NGC's $16.50 World Modern service if the FMV is below $2000. And, once it is in the holder, at least you have the grade guarantee if it were to go bad in the holder.

    Don't put your prized coins at risk by undervaluing them.
     
  16. CAPITALISTPIG

    CAPITALISTPIG New Member

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    Thanks.
    I guess that my main mental block is the ambiguity of the pricing. I think that the old price structure was more simplistic. I wish that they could just change their pricing without injecting subjectives like FMV.
     
  17. comeaux

    comeaux New Member Silver Stacker

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    Maybe it has already been mentioned and I may have missed it but remember that NCS submission charge for the common pandas and other coins below $300 is still $26.50 nothing has changed with these submission charges.
     
  18. mfm

    mfm New Member

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    If I may ask, exactly what kind of packaging do the coins have and how does the PVC damage appear?
     
  19. CAPITALISTPIG

    CAPITALISTPIG New Member

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    I am not a metalurgist, so I cannot say what long term effects may be. I do know that PVC degrades over time, but I do not know how this degredation would affect the metals. If anyone else can add to this, I am eager to learn.

    My concern then, is mostly preservative and preventative. I have a couple of panda in OMP PVC. These are not the double packaged silver, byt rather the PVC ONLY Au. Sometimes (especially if the coins have been stored for long periods) the PVC becomes "sticky" to the coin and must be pulled away. The coins look nice, but I would bet my microdate that CSI can find PVC residue on these. So as a precaution, I would have these conserved. Thus I would have more longterm confidence in the coin and also it may look nicer after conservation.

    Personally, I have had not bad experiences with PVC packaging. Most of my older bears had been put into lock-tites at the time of purchase (not thinking that OMP would have any value to a bullion coin.) But I see that the PVC issue is one of debate, so I will take the cautious approach and seek conservation when necessary and afforable.
     
  20. fishball

    fishball New Member Silver Stacker

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    I've been going on Wikipedia and so on but can't find much information on PVC degradation except for strong sunlight & 100 degrees temperature+ which are both not going to happen with my coins short of a massive stuffup.

    Took a look at my 1980s Gold pandas in OMP and can't find any visible sign of PVC degradation or damage. Not to say it doesn't exist but I can't see it with 10x magnification at all.

    PVC is apparently one of the relatively stable plastics as well so I am not sure where this PVC degradation idea comes from or whether it was started as a rumor by grading companies :p.

    Source: http://safersolutions.org.au/a/180?task=view
     

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