Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by comeaux, Nov 7, 2011.
I was just looking at one of these! Really nice design. Where did you source it from?
Looks like they're sucking the Pandas dry for all their worth, much like the Dragons.
PandaAmerica has them to, but they are $27 dearer and charge for freight, whereas China Huayin don't.
Do you guys consider the coin expo show coins commemoratives or is that reserved for horti, high speed, financial worker, fishballs Mao dog coin (still can't get that design outta my head dammit Fish!!)etc coins?
I'm of the opinion the coin show coins are commemoratives but they 're in a different category... more a series than 1 offs. I think they're highly collectable.
I call anything non standard Panda bullion as commemorative Makes it easy for my brain
I'm pretty much with yennus on this.
If you look at the investments lists at LBC (link in sig), you'll see that pandas are separated into 4 categories.
1, proof pandas
2, BU pandas
3, platinum and palladium pandas
4, other pandas (expos, commemoratives, etc)
Yeah...far too difficult for me haha
I just call them special commemorative pandas because normal pandas are already commemorative panda coins
It is not uncommon for 3 to 5 (or more) Panda commemoratives to be released on any given year.
Here is a list and mintages
It's strange though, there are a few commemoratives which are cheaper than the bullion version even though they have lower mintage, their appreciation in price is smaller than the bullion so from a pure investment perspective one has to pick the winners and the losers, by luck and skill .
I guess the desire to have those coins are somewhat lower. Much like Perth Mint's gilded Ox (with no Box/coa) compared to bullion Ox.
Some examples of Panda commemoratives which are cheaper than the bullion would be:
- 2009 30th Anniversary Panda (for now!)
- 2006 Xi'an Horticulture
- 1998 Hong Kong International Coin Convention 1/2oz
- 2006 10th Anniversary of Minsheng Bank
- 2006 10th Anniversary of Bank of Beijing
Probably more but I can't remember.
The majority however, perform just fine. Unlike Perth Mint, there are less duds and more winners. So it doesn't yet seem there is excessive milking of the Panda series.
From a collector's perspective I'd just buy whatever I like .
It is well known that the Chinese Coin market has slightly softened and has affected SOME of the Chinese coins but not all, predominately the more recent issues.
Both 2009's are basically the same price at about $100 to $120 for NGC MS69's
Recently the 2009 30th was selling for about $25 more but has pulled back but I honestly think the 2009 30th will outperform the regular 2009 in the near future.
If you can get the 2006 Bank of Beijing for $100 to $125 then I would love to pick up another one or two, same goes for the 2006 10th Anniversary of Minsheng Bank. The MS69 2006 Horticultural is selling for about $100 more than the 2006 regular as is the 1998 oz Hong Kong Expo.
Yes you are correct that a FEW of the commemoratives are selling for equal of less than their regular bullion counterparts but the majority are selling for exponentially more if you can even find them.
Here are just a few examples as I did not expend much time looking but there are many of the commemoratives selling for well over $1,000 and completely blowing away their bullion counterparts
2008 1 oz. Silver Chinese Panda - 100th Anniversary of Beijing Banknote Printing Plant
This coin is selling for over $1,500 (NGC MS69)
2007 1 oz. Silver Chinese Panda - 10th Anniversary of Xi'An City Commercial Bank
This coin is selling for over $1,500 (NGC MS69)
2006 1 OZ Silver Chinese Panda - Jinan City Bank
This coin is selling for up to $1,000
There is no doubt that on any given day a person can pick up random awesome deals on ebay from unsuspecting sellers like the regular bullion silver panda 2003's and 2004's that I have bought on ebay in OMP for $80 (then graded 69 ) or the 2005's and 2007's I bought in OMP for $60, the 1998 small dates in OMP for $150. Those are rare occasions but the prices I'm talking about in my examples are the prices you would typically see them selling for on average.
Another thing to consider is the Modern Chinese Coin market is only in its infancy and has exploded in the last year. It is impossible to foresee what some of these extremely low mintage commemoratives will be valued at in a few years. With an influx of wealthy Chinese coin collectors recently entering into the market and growing, I'm definitely a buyer of commemoratives but It's all a just matter of personal preference and strategy.
Again as has been conveyed, collecting is more about enjoyment to the collector from a coin added to his collection rather than mintage and value.
Mintage and value would be relevant to an investor so I guess my angle/opinion will be more likely be from the collectors viewpoint
Agreed, it's got strong potential imo which is why I bought the Gold/Silver 2009 30th Anniversary set.
No I can't get any, I merely checked pricepedia as a quick reference. Anyway the 1998 1/2oz HK Expo is cheaper than the bullion 1/2oz, you can find it on Xu Hong's store if you're interested. I think he has them still, last time I checked they were... I actually wanted to buy them because I thought they were underpriced. According to pricepedia the MS69 2006 1oz Panda goes for $209 whereas the other 3 I listed go for under $200. Jinan bank is an exception going for almost $600.
Yeh that's what I was saying, most of them are very expensive now but their release price was probably a lot higher than bullion so % gains might be lower relatively from an investor's point of view. Especially if you paid for example, $70 for a 2006 Horticulture Panda when bullion could've been had for $20.
100% agreed, I buy commemoratives pandas as well, bought the 30th Anniversary set for $750 a while back but just thought I'd put the idea out there that not all pandas are going to be epic winners as a standard disclaimer. One of each won't harm though.
Yep... from collector's perspective every coin is a winner as long as you like it
Mintage only has limited relevance to price point and value, low mintage is pointless if the demand is low as well. Unfortunately this applies to Pandas as well.
This is evident from Perth Mint proof coin releases, some of them with 5000 mintage have dropped to < $50 as well as the 2006 Horticulture Panda which is still available at around $120.
Anyway I'm pretty much agreeing with you on everything, just need to do your research if you're investing and if you're just collecting then buy whatever you like
Wow you type fast !!!
Pretty much agreeing with you as well but pricepedia is WAY off on the 2006 NGC MS69 at $225.
That's not Peter's error, just some unknowing newbie paying about $100 too much
Also I would not use Xu Hong as a definitive source of "OMP" prices as we know the story about his resealed "OMP" coins. Again, I'm not bashing Xu but a coin that has been "resealed" is definitely not OMP as OMP stands for "original mint packaging"
Everywhere I have looked the Hong Kong Expo in 69 is minimum $100 more than the regular 1998 but as I stated previously there are occasional/random price fluctuations on specific transactions.
Modern Chinese coins are in a whole other stratosphere than any other modern coin and mintage to rarity value has much more relevance.
I totally agree with mintage related to value discussion on certain coins, Australian Lunars are a good series of coin to use for the mintage related to rarity issue, especially Australian lunars good example is the 2012 dragon with mintage of 300,000 and still readily available everywhere and will possibly be selling for the same price 10 years from now or maybe a little more. They may be sold out at the mint but every single dealer that I know of is overflowing with these coins and aren't moving them quickly either.
I have an Australian Lunar 2000 1/10th Gold Dragon NGC PF70 (NCS conserved) with population of two that I don't think I could sell it (or at least not what I think it should be worth).
Then you have the US mint release their special (boring) ASE set at a 100,000 mintage and it sells out in 5 hours, go figure.
Also I think we would need Peter Anthony to chime in but the commemoratives actually sold only for a few dollars more than their bullion counterparts up to just a few years ago. I think it was he or one of the members at CCF mentioning this some time back in a post there at CCF.
Anyway I do agree with many of your points as well
Happy Collecting !
Any one know the issue price ?
If there's enough interest should buy 10, save a bit of money.
Although postage in Australia might kill the idea.
I'm pretty sure he has free postage.
I mean reposting off to people if there was a 'group buy'.
Lol my bad.
Just for informational purposes ... Panda America has them as well. The only catch is that as of yesterday all they had was graded specimens ... MS69 and 70's.
It's just me but issues such as these I prefer the box and all, just as I do with special edition panda sets ... these kinds of items I do not grade so I opted to order from Xu Hong.
I just wanted to disseminate information is all ...
Did I miss something? These are now selling for $950!!!!
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