Current economic theory have lost the plot.

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by leo25, May 14, 2019.

  1. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Capitalism doesn’t provide for true freedom because you are still subject to laws that can be changed according to the whims and fancy of the rulers. In worst cases, laws don’t exist. Rights to property can be rescinded by the rulers.
     
  2. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Capitalism is not a political system. You're confusing economic systems with political systems.
     
  3. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    what China did could be just a test, to force US and Taiwan and people in HK to open their cards
    they push forward and then back off

    Taiwan wanted to run campaign based on extradition treaty...now the bill no more
    US open the card by keeping the status of HK
    people in HK got the support and funding from certain sources, so this have been monitored, so there will be no next time
     
  4. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Capitalism is a theory that has never been fully tested. don't confuse theory with reality.
     
  5. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Hence "democracy riots".
     
  6. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm trying to respond to JulieW's question on whether capitalism gives rise to freedom.

    This is a difficult question depending on how you define freedom. Some may say that freedom is to walk safely on the street. Freedom to own property is another form of freedom. True communism provides freedom to walk safely on the street. In North Korea, people can probably walk freely on the streets without fear of being burglared or kidnapped.

    Democracy is about freedom to vote for the government.

    I think what Beijing fears about HK is not capitalism since capitalism existed in ancient China, but rather the "western values" of democracy and equality. Democracy is very much a Western value that existed from ancient Greece and Rome and equality is a christian value. These thoughts, together with the concept of communism and socialism never existed in ancient China.

    The trade war is never about trade or globalisation, it's about Western vs Ancient Chinese ideology.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It's not a theory.

    It's a system that evolved when the first individual traded what they value less for something they value more. Capitalism is what defines humans, it's what sets us apart from animals.

    Don't confuse theory with reality.
     
  8. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Capitalism is an economic system, it is not a political system. It is the best economic system to foster freedom, it however does not mean that a capitalist society is necessarily a free society - that depends upon what type of political system is in place. A capitalistic socialist state such as China would however better meet the needs and wants of its citizens than a non-capitalistic socialist state such as North Korea.
     
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  9. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It's never been tested at scale. Most things don't work when they scale due to small imperfections (in this case in humans). I'm not saying it won't work, just saying its never been tried.
     
  10. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It's tested daily by billions, by both satisfied consumers and those that are unsatisfied.

    It's human nature personified in the market place.
     
  11. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Not really. You're being idealistic, only seeing what you want. Until there is a 100% free market then it's untested.
     
  12. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Check your premise.

    Edit: I can't be bothered arguing with someone whose only lines of argument are that it I'm being unrealistic or idealistic. Get some facts together or drop it and stick to what you know.
     
  13. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    ? You're saying in a system where there isn't a free market and therefore not a capitalist system, that at scale a capitalist system works. Makes no sense.

    Make a city with 100% free market and see your mad max vision awake. You make a fatal flaw in thinking everyone is logical and does what's in the best interest.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  14. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Check my edited post. Im moving on to something more meaningful.
     
  15. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Can't have people question your faith hey? You just like questioning everything but your own views. ;)
     
  16. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    True, but as you said, capitalism (and the ideas it brings) threatens the power brokers in Beijing. Money is power, money runs the US and many western democracies. This "needs and wants" of citizens will have to be sacrificed for Beijing to maintain power. So much for the capitalism "experiment".
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
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  17. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    "Freedom" is a combination of the freedoms, lose any one of these and you are not in a "free society".
    Freedom of association
    Freedom of movement
    Freedom of (or from) religion
    Freedom of speech, expression, and thought
    Freedom of self determination (including economic)

    All of course can come with a social cost, but they shouldn't come with the threat of incarceration or worse, if they do then you don't have that freedom.
     
  18. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I was asking you whether capitalism threatens the power brokers in China and somehow the argument has ended up with me having to defend capitalism. As if it’s not obviously the best system.

    So the freedom that capitalism ushers in is a threat. Thank you.
     
  19. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    all well and good, China welcome all foreigner to visit Xinqiang to see for themselves, but American trying to forbid people from visiting
    there is a reason the direct flight to Caracas been terminated, to prevent American from seeing the real thing going on there
    the people in Crimea voted for self determination and joint with Russia, in the eyes other than Crimean that is not freedom
    expensive gas, ie American Freedom gas that is 30% more expensive than Russian gas, more like enslavement gas to me
     
  20. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No need to visit Xinjiang, can watch here - https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48667221/inside-china-s-thought-transformation-camps

    Note the documentary is sanctioned by the Chinese state. Actually, this isn't allien to me, we have this in Singapore, all primary school kids have to go through lessons on "how to be a good citizen". The indoctination works well for kids 7-12 years old. Don't know if it will work for grown men and women though. Apparently, they don't have this in HK I suppose?
     

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