Chinese medals - silver isn't the only composition!

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by mmissinglink, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    I second the motion! Don't even dream of selling a Xi Shi PF/MS70!
     
  2. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    For those who buy copper or brass medals..

    How do you determine your "silver medal to copper/brass medal" ratio?


    At this time I only collect silver & brass Chinese medals.

    My buy criteria (relief, design, price, etc.) for both is pretty much the same.


    I've also sort of analyzed my brass medal collection, and here are the main categories..

    - Matching pairs (1 each of Ag & brass of the same medal)
    - Brass medals which would be fairly unaffordable in Ag (70mm brass vs 300g Ag, for example)
    - Brass medals which aren't available / minted in Ag


    I recall my collection is currently about evenly split 50/50 for Ag & brass.


    However, I'm wondering if I should push even further into brass..

    Or, save that money & use it to buy fewer Ag medals, instead (since brass versions are cheaper for what I buy).


    Even though there are some great medals in brass that I want, I still have to weigh the potential financial gain of brass versus Ag..

    I could be wrong, but something tells me that the silver ones will appreciate quicker/more.


    No plans on selling any anytime soon, and perhaps I'll just pass them on to the next generation..

    But, there may come a time when I sell some for whatever reason(s). And obviously would like to get the most bang for my buck.

    I also think there may be a larger market for Ag than brass, at least here in the West.


    Thoughts? How do others balance this?
     
  3. andrewlee10

    andrewlee10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Nanjing panda brass and naming god of wealth brass more expansive than AG in same size and design (series)

    I buy what I like and what feel potential is high.

    I will say anyone need shi Xi silver will look for me in future. I have 15% of the total mintage on my hand now.
     
  4. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Totally understood.


    Which is why I wrote this.. :)

    "Or, save that money & use it to buy fewer Ag medals, instead (since brass versions are cheaper for what I buy)."



    Buying what one likes?

    I tend to like Ag more, all else being equal.

    Though there are cases where buying the Ag version of certain medals just isn't possible.


    Allocating the funds & balancing the collection seems to be a tricky thing for me.. :(
     
  5. andrewlee10

    andrewlee10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Let take world heritage series AG as example. The early issue price was USD550 for Beijing palace and Shenyang Palace 520 for great wall. However, not many collectors in china love them and it is sleeping dragon. I spot it and buy 10% of the actual mintage of 50 pieces (as at today). This is so call potential I am referring. The price is high at this moment and no one release for sell due to majority landed in string collector hand. You have not notice anyone for sell in ebay except 1 left for the great wall NGC PF69 from Bob. I have Shenyang palace and Great wall omp to sell at chinesemedals.com.

    For this series I will say buy brass NOT silver because price has up 1 X to 1.2 X and hard to collect full set as the first one is very rare and no one is selling. Buy one of it you like it most at high price if you admire the high relief effect, china world heritage and the art. The price might go higher in someday.

    Another way is wait for the 4th and the balance out. It suppose to release in Jun or July BUT I heard no news now. I am awaiting it and want to get as many as possible if financially allow.

    So this tell you buy fast at issue price as you like it and feel the potential
     
  6. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Good question Gatito.

    I largely follow the reasoning you've put forth, the caveats for me being:
    1) I also buy copper medals - I like copper at least as much as brass
    2) If a particular design looks killer in brass or copper I may forgo the costlier silver
    3) If the mintage is lower in the copper or brass that could weigh heavily in my decision to eschew silver for copper or brass

    No doubt I am a lover of silver and I'll always be interested in considering the silver version of any copper or brass medal design.




    .
     
  7. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Yeah, I've noticed that.. :lol:


    My issue was trying to catch up with some of the older ones, while still trying to buy new releases.

    You & b's website should be a big help now.. :cool:
     
  8. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Only issue with that is what barsenault mentioned earlier here somewhere..

    That, the actual mintage is sometimes nowhere near as high as the maximum mintage.


    So, if Ag max mintage = 1K, and brass max mintage = 3K, it might be really misleading.

    Seems like the Ag version of certain medals is usually more popular, at least judging by NGC census reports.


    I've even run into a case where the Ag is widely available, while the brass counter-part I want is pretty much impossible to find -- yet the max brass mintage is supposedly higher, with NGC census of brass way lower than Ag. :/



    Speaking of which, wondering if somebody could answer this:

    Is there a cut-off point of how long any of these official Chinese mints could produce a medal? Could they still mint 2 years later, say, if the max mintage hasn't been reached yet?
     
  9. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    Lunar Series. Copper Only. 999 Minted. And Hand Carved. 45mm and 90mm. Having some challenges uploading HD quality videos as of late, not sure why. Pictures look better than the video, unfortunately. Both the mold and die is hand carved, making this piece very unique. So say my contacts in china based on the COA below. :D

    It is for sale on www.chinesemedals.com

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGNbSGAw76s[/youtube]

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    [​IMG]
     
  10. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    I believe they can technically continue to mint, unfortunately. I think the Perth Mint learned their lesson with collectors. They instituted a policy that once a 'declared mintage is made,' that's it, dies are efffectively destroyed. There are no more being minted. Whereas with the chinese, this is not the case, unfortunately. I think they should take a page from the Perth Mint. I think the Classical Garden Series has tried to imitate the PM policy. For example, I know that in the Lohan example, only 200 silver 2 oz medals were minted. The mintage is 999. Technically, 10 years down the road, they can mint another 799 to meet that planned mintage. I wrote a long note to the person who knows the person commissioning this series, saying, in essence, stop with the 999 mintage for silver and 3000 for brass, when you know full well that the silver only sold 200, and brass is about the same as well...he said the guy is sticking with 999 and 3000. I called B.S. They are not listening to me, but maybe they'll listen to us. if only 200 were minted, why not make the 2nd in the series with a mintage of 500. there's still wiggle room....oh no, they're keeping it at 999. I hope the person who is working with this series reads this thread. Tell your buddy, he's nuts. Just say'n. :D
     
  11. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    It's possible that each mint may mint additional medals up to the max mintage based on specifics of the issue in question. I can't speak for the official mints and I can't say that I know the official policy of non-official mints but I do know that a reputable mint which had produced a large number of medals, the Shanghai New Century Metal Corp, has stopped, for the foreseeable future, production on the 1 kilo + silver Snake Dance medal due to the high cost of producing this medal.

    The word I got from Frank Zeng (he contacted the mint directly earlier this year) is that only with an order of at least several of those silver Snake Dance medals would the mint consider going back into production of it. But I'm wondering, with the silver spot being so low now, customers may feel the 2012 issue price of such a massive, ultra high relief / detailed medal like the silver Snake Dance is not worth paying for at this time. I don't know how the mint prices medals like that in relation to the current trading price of silver but I'm going to guess that for large medals like that, they will stick to the initial issue price regardless if the current spot price of silver has dropped significantly. So customers may not want to pay that 2012 issue price in 2015 and therefore no new orders for that medal come in halting the actual mintage indefinitely.




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  12. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Shenyang did a great job on that horse. :cool:


    I'd have been all over that in brass and/or affordable Ag..
     
  13. andrewlee10

    andrewlee10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    okay man...... This my contribution to the planned mintage and actual mintage issue of official and non official mint :-

    First every official mints and non-official mints have their own policy about this matter. They can change as when others factors change.

    My observation and experience told me that Shanghai mints has a policy of high planned mintage for medal below 90gram silver or/and 45mm or/and 90mm brass/cooper medal (Please notes this is majority of the modern medal issue by them BUT NOT ALL MEDAL).

    Nanjing and Shenyang mints are more easy with the mintage policy as compare to Shanghai mints. Shenzhen mints seldom produce medal as compare to those three official mints.

    Other private mints tend to produce less mintage as compare to official mints in recent years. I emphasis again this is not all BUT in general.

    I have no information of mints the balance of the mintage. However, I understood that the copy right of the shenyang mints medals belong to the mints in this few years instead of the medal investor. I am not sure of other official mints. However, I can ask around if necessary. In general as mention early that Shenyang mints tends in producing lower mintage than Shanghai mints for modern medal. I believe they fully or 80% mints majority of the medal planned mintage.

    As heard the official mints will keep the die even the medal/coins are fully mints. This is different with PM which Bob say destroy the die.

    It is also common practice for private mints to mint the balance of the mintage as compare to official mints. Xi shi silver is an good example. out of sudden Frank Zeng and Lucky have 20 pieces release to the market as I estimated. However, Lucky has no stock if no wrong. Frank Zeng has few left. Noami has 1 piece. All other in collectors hand and with me LOL. It is harder to get official mints to produce the balance of the not mint medal as per planned mintage. A lot procedures and extra costs to pay to make it happen. Therefore, the investor must ensure demand is there and profitable for them before action.
     
  14. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the Lunar horse above, both the die and mold are hand carved. Very unique.
     
  15. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I know I might seem like I'm making hay out of semantics but "unique" really has but one definition - "one of a kind". I suggest the correction because as people of integrity (which you are Barsenault) we ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the run-of-the-mill hapless collector. As professionals, the same applies. Our culture has bastardized so many words to the extent that many have sadly become interchangeable with other words that don't mean the same thing at all. The engraving / sculpting process of the horse medal could be said to be very uncommon or scarce, but not unique.

    It is already on my very long and growing want list.




    .
     
  16. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    It would seem as per definition number 5 unique would be an appropriate word to use since this process would be not typical and rather unusual.

    unique ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unique )

    [yoo-neek]

    adjective

    1.existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics:
    a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.

    2.having no like or equal; unparalleled; incomparable:
    Bach was unique in his handling of counterpoint.

    3.limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area:
    a species unique to Australia.

    4.limited to a single outcome or result; without alternative possibilities:
    Certain types of problems have unique solutions.

    5. not typical; unusual: She has a very unique smile.

    noun

    6.the embodiment of unique characteristics; the only specimen of a given kind:
    The unique is also the improbable.
     
  17. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    yes, unique, lol, meaning, not typical...not typical in this modern error of 2015. I know there are examples of hand carved dies/molds in days gone by (1970's - 1990's)...but to do so today is too cumbersome and/or time consuming. If proven true, and I've validated thru COA and folks in China, I think this is an unusual medal. However, I do leave the door open to be proven wrong...actually that my Chinese friends to be proven wrong :)
     
  18. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    I'd consider that copper lunar horse as "unique" -- even if the mold & die hadn't been hand-carved.


    In a world with millions of ASE's / Maples / Panda's / etc., each year, a max mintage of only 999 with aesthetics & workmanship like that, it's defintely unique! :cool:

    Not to mention that I'm guessing the bulk of them stay in Asia?


    Anyway, suggestion for the website: Always remember to put the diameter / weight for each product.. I noticed the copper horse didn't state the diameter. :)
     
  19. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I strongly disagree with mtforpar because:

    1) the etymology of the word "unique" unequivocally indicates - "c. 1600, "single, solitary"," from Middle French unique (16c.), from Latin unicus "only, single, sole, alone of its kind ," from unus "one" (see one). Meaning "forming the only one of its kind " is attested from 1610s; erroneous sense of "remarkable, uncommon" is attested from mid-19c . Related: Uniquely; uniqueness." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=unique

    2) as I've already correctly noted, some words become bastardized from their true meanings. A perfect example of this is "unique".

    3) I am nearly 100% certain that I have read (I believe Frank Wang had written about it) that a few other modern medals used hand carved / engraved dies.


    Therefore, unless something is one of a kind, it actually is not unique.




    .
     
  20. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    You are not disagreeing with me...you are disagreeing with the dictionary.
     

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