Carbon Price announced today

Well Big A.D.

I've no doubt you are a fine person. I don't blame you.

You are a product of relentless mainstream propaganda and an education that teaches not to question the prevailing wisdom. I can see you really believe that a tax on carbon dioxide will make a difference to the world.

Eventually, in the face of the climate continuing to cool, you'll come to realise that you have been misled. When that happens, you need to do two things. First, don't hold it against yourself; you were only going with what you were told. Second, don't believe what they tell you next time.

I'll just have to leave it at that.

 

Continuing to cool? Seriously? Ok one simple question - what evidence would it take to make you change your mind?

 

I can't figure out what Smart cars are expensive? Great idea, but the only people that can afford them probably aren't the people who have to worry about the price of gasoline. Sounds like they are nothing more than a YUPPY marketing ploy.

 

You know it's not my job to argue with you about climate change. I did my research, followed the people, the money, the rigged data, the failed predictions and the cooling weather. The information is all out there, it's not hard to find. Have a look for yourself.

It's a pointless arguing with someone who believes what their told without doing their own research. They just get angry at you for challenging their comfortable world view. And in any case, give it five years or so and the cooling we are currently moving into will be undeniable. You can only have so many bad winters before people look up from their TV's and papers and go WTF?

It's the same as with investing in precious metals. If you look to the mainstream media and paid experts, you'd never invest in silver or gold. Yet here we are.

 

Oh, I've looked at the data - I guess we just came to different conclusions. We'll see who's right in time I guess.

 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzQBz3h5gnc[/youtube]
Note the comment on 'setting an example for the little people'

 

Cant stand hybrid driver smugness.

They label themselves as total wankers, to those who understand marketing.

 

Well, thanks for the comment on my character but for what it's worth I'm probably one of the most critical people I know, due largely to the education I received, my own study and having lived in the real world for a reasonable amount of time.

As you said:

Investing in precious metals is one of the areas where I reject the mainstream view that they're a waste of time and money because I can see the devaluation of fiat currency occurring, the various fluctuations in exchange rates and the benefits of hedging via gold and the long term demand for precious metals in emerging markets. The fundamentals are just fine so I don't need people like Michael Pascoe to tell me what to think. On the flip-side, I also don't belive in the infallibility of the real estate market because I can see houses selling for less than they're advertised at just by walking around town and talking to young people who would normally be the next generation of buyers but who've simply given up on the prospect of owning their own home because they've been priced out of the market.

On the other hand, a carbon tax follows the very basic principle that governments subsidise things they want to encourage (Good Things) and tax things they want to discourage (Bad Things). Pumping as much carbon into the atmosphere as we are currently is a Bad Thing because it messes with the earth's ability to cool itself from the sun's heat and therefore is something that should be discouraged.

Regarding the science, I can only assume we've been reading different sets of data, but you can try this at home if you don't believe carbon emissions are making the world hotter: take two empty fish tanks, seal up one so it is full of regular air, leave it in the sun and measure the temperature inside. Fill the other with CO2 from a beer keg or post-mix soft drink system, seal it up, leave it in the sun and measure the temperature inside. The tank with CO2 in it will get hotter. There isn't any problem with the science that says carbon emissions are causing climate change and the only people who are questioning it are the vested interests who need to pollute in order to make money (and the people who believe their propaganda).

I also don't think its disingenuous for Julia Gillard to announce the introduction of a carbon tax because, if you remember, Doing Something About Climate Change was one of the biggest drivers of Kevin Rudd's landslide election win in 2007 after John Howard refused to do anything that would upset the status quo. Of course the Copenhagen summit fell apart and the momentum for change was lost to a degree, but we've known that a change to the way we do things was going to come about sooner or later so the only disingenuous part of Gillard re-introducing a policy that was promised earlier is the apparent shock and anger that some people seem to have for it. It's worth noting that after the 2007 election, the Opposition were evenly split over the need to Do Something About Climate Change and it was only one vote in the Liberal Party caucus that gave us Tony "Oppose Everything" Abbott. On one hand, we've got Tony Abbott, Alan Jones and their rusted-on supporters getting huffy about the very idea of any new tax on anything (regardless of the outcomes it would achieve) and on the other hand we have Labor, the Greens, the Business Council of Australia, the energy companies, farmers and the world's climate scientists saying a carbon tax is a good idea because it will help reduce carbon emissions.

So no, I don't think I'm blindly following the mainstream thinking here - my eyes are wide open and there is even a good chance that I myself will end up paying more for something because of the carbon tax, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthwhile policy.

 

How will you see who is right?

If the planet does cool, you'll say "See - the ETS fixed the global warming" and he'll say "I told you it was cooling all along"...

 

That's disingenuous. We are not talking about saturating the air with CO2. It is far less than 1% of the atmosphere and will remain so, regardless of what we do, absent some catastrophic event (like massive volcanic eruptions all over the planet).

 

Because the science indicates that there is a couple of degrees of future temperature rises already baked into the climate system no matter what we do from here. What we do from here on could determine what happens after those couple of degrees.

 

The CO2 in a bottle test doesn't really prove AGW climate change. It's the same thing as this stupid experiment:

Test the surface temperature of a blade of grass. Now test the surface temperature of bitumen road. The road will be hotter. Therefore roads are causing global warming.

I think CO2 is a contributor but not the cause.

The whole solar system is heating up.

2007 was 4 years ago. New election. New promises. 2007 irrelevant.

I don't support Tony the tosspot nor Alan Jones.

Outcome it will achieve = SFA because of the China and India non-compliance factor.

Energy companies will be receiving compensation from the Gov. They aren't going to be losing out either way.

 

"Saturation" is relative to how much CO2 would normally be in the atmosphere.

Its quite possible to die from dihydrogen monoxide poisoning, even though the substance is widely considered to be "safe". In that case, even a relatively small amount would pass the point of saturation and become deadly.

 

CO2 is an elastic gas... the more of it in the atmosphere, the higher the speed at which the sound barrier is reached. Ergo, commercial airliners (one of the biggest consumers of liquid fuels) will be able to travel with less resistance.

Q.E.D. creating CO2 saves oil.

 

Yes, and since all dogs have four legs and my cat has four legs, my cat is actually a dog.

 

Well Julia said that taxing us higher will make us more competitive with the rest of the world, therefore taxing us all at a flat rate of 80% will make us an International powerhouse! (that was actually pinched from Tim Blair in the daily telegraph 28/2/12)

 

Some more excerpts from Tim Blair's letter to Julia;

 

Point-by-point okay?

Like the 2007 election?

One of the reasons Labor suffered at the 2010 election was because they had promised to act on climate change in 2007 and didn't deliver. Now they're copping a battering for not not acting on climate change.

I'll agree the GroceryWatch idea was dumb, but its worth remembering that the deaths-to-houses-insulated ratio was significantly lower under Labor's Pink Batts scheme. More houses insulated, same number of deaths (and yes, those deaths were tragic in case anyone thinks I'm making light of them).

Because Alan Jones' listeners still won't understand how it works, even three years after its been in place? Just an educated guess based on the public's opinion of Rudd's stimulus spending in the wake of the GFC.

For what it's worth, I'm not especially enamoured with Wayne Swan either but its possible he's busy figuring out how the scheme will work, given that every man and his dog wants their little area exempted from the tax.

I'm not exactly sure what the point is here. Is turning the lights off when you leave a room mutually exclusive to building a fiber-optic network?

This agriculture takes place in regional areas with numbers of trees that act as carbon sinks, right? Why do you think farmers are excited about owning land that can absorb carbon if carbon is going to have a dollar figure attached to it?

Dunno. Might be worth finding out before saying its a bad policy, eh?

I'm pretty sure that this was covered (in a round-about kind of way) during the first announcement last week when Julia Gillard said:

One would assume that if the cost of living pressures are higher for "hard-up families in Sydney" then they would receive more assistance than "the well-off in Adelaide", but again the actual detail is yet to be seen (hence it would be premature to criticise the government for not doing anything for "working families" (which is a phrase I loathe hearing, BTW).

 

Yeah..that wasn't too bad!

 

I am amazed at the intellectual poverty displayed in this thread.

How does anyone justify owning silver AND support unrelenting waves of new taxes?

Have you not learned anything of the nature of fiat money to understand that it is all a massive fraud perpetuated for control and privilege of those who issue it (bankers) and those who get to use it first (government and investment banks)?

In what alternate dimension does increasing the input costs on a society of 25 million, while supporting the Chinese environmental catastrophe, equate to saving the world?

The small mindedness of those pro-big-government, pro-more-taxation posters is astounding.
Get a clue. If the government wanted to save the planet and profit in the process it would use some of those dollars-created-out-of-thin-air and invest in alternate energy solutions and mandate their use, not tax the people more.

These new taxes are nothing less than burying our financial independence and stealing the prosperity of all working Australians under the guise of environmental necessity, while selling any filthy, environmentally damaging substance they can dig up to any buyer, for any purpose.

Who are you apologists for these traitorous politicians who run around reporting their activities to the foreign embassies in Canberra? You are pathetic and need to take a long look in the mirror and think about what you stand for, besides the group think of the welfare state.

1984 is here and you are not on the side of the protagonist, but instead are the grey and beige mass of humanity willingly manipulated by the power of the state, waiting to beat down and betray those individuals who cry out for their sovereignty and freedom.

Stand-up and be counted. Write to your local member and let them know that you see their hypocrisy and object to it. Let them know it is unconscionable to increase the cost burden on Australians without levelling the playing field against the Chinese Communist imports that are not likewise taxed. Let them know you will not go silently into the night as they turn our country into a labour camp without hope of reward. Let them know you are awake and not afraid to be heard! Let them know you will not live on your knees!!