I'm new to this forum (obviously!) and thank everyone for the effort & contribution resulting in my spending several hours reading yesterday & today. I'm a very experienced real estate investor but am new to bullion and needing to start stacking asap. I'm confused about the "branding" of silver bars (eg Silver Stackers; Ainslie; Perth Mint; Various US-origin) and wondering what effect, if any, this has on purchase & resale - especially ease of resale. I would have thought that an internationally known "stamp" would be easier to sell - or at least more "portable" in the sense one could sell globally. I'm not looking to do short term trades, just build for the future, for both wealth protection and also some speculative hedging against the fiat mayhem that is being bestowed on us ... and perhaps ultimately not just for me but for my daughter, her children (one day) etc So question number 1: Does this branding make any difference or is it just that when it says .9995 on the bar, that's enough, no matter what the brand? (outside of resale withing this forum, where it seems there's not much attention paid to that, unless it is a VERY good looking piece haha) And question number 2: Perth Mint is supposed to be expensive ... but the 10oz silver bars there were being advertised cheaper than (for example) some site sponsors here. I'd far rather support site sponsors than WA Inc, so is there something I'm not seeing apart from delivery costs? (I'm in the Sunshine Coast). If I'm after several kilos of Silver & some ounces of Gold then maybe it makes more sense to drive the Brisbane & pick it up myself? Your guidance and shortcuts to "smart-purchasing" are appreciated! (And thanks to haveblue, whose Excel Spreadsheets I already have & who has already pointed me in some helpful directions) Cheers!
1) Branding has some effect on resale. Higher premiums for more popular stuff. Not a big deal to worry about. Also if you were selling internationally the Perth Mint stuff would be better-recognised than Ainslie and Silver Stackers, for example. Outside of that, silver is generally silver, though I prefer smaller sizes up to 10oz, no larger. I just think they're easier to sell. The smaller sizes and minted coins and bars also attract more of a premium than poured kilo bars for instance, but they sell for more when you sell them, so no money lost really. 2) get whatever is cheapest for you. You're not missing out on anything.
Always good to have internationally recognised brands (PM and PAMP) but purchasing these or ABC bars which have the same amount of metal for slightly cheaper has a lot to do with your reasons for stacking, if you want maximum exposure to silver and what your exit strategy is. There is no practical difference between .999 and .9995 and .9999 The stacker bars are actually made by academy (same ones who make the scottsdale stackers) I dont' consider Perth Mint expensive I'd say it was middling, ABC is cheaper PAMP and Academy are more expensive... Personally: - I stack bars of different sizes - Don't buy gold smaller that 1/4oz or 5gm unless it is at a steep discount and probably not larger than 1oz
As far as branding goes I personally try to stick with stuff from the Perth mint as it is internationally recognized and from what I've seen one of the most liquid brands. I'm not sure why the 10oz are cheaper from the Perth mint directly but I speculate it is because the long waiting times. I haven't bought from the mint but I think the waiting times are around 1-2months to get your order, although I'm not 100% sure.
Instead of a one kilo dragon I'd buy a 1 kilo bar then two half ounce dragons with the money saved...free dragon numismatic zing
Wow! That was fast - you guys are amazing. That DEFINITELY helps, thanks ... I feel like I was on the right track. Why is it that some prefer 1 kilo vs others at 10oz bars? I was thinking of a mix, purely from the point of view of balancing liquidity with premium over spot price (if that sounds correct). And what's so good about the dragons? I shall post here after making my first purchase no doubt ... much to learn and a lot of fun too
People buy the dragons over the bars because they have a chance to become numismatics in the future, so they take the chance and pay a little extra premium in order to have a shot at owning something that will become numismatic. And yes the 1kg vs 10oz is just liquidity and the most bang for your buck.
Welcome to the forum Robert 1Kg versus 10oz versus 1oz - in my opinion, it's a matter of preference. Ask yourself why you're stacking - I know you answered this largely above If you think, perhaps one day, the fiat systems are going to go to hell in a handbasket, maybe you want some 1oz stuff hanging around to trade with. Also consider, silver is manipulated market, and manipulated downward - the true value of this metal (I believe) is higher than what we see and pay now. Perhaps some smaller items are easier to sell if price really jumps high. Consider silver goes to $400 per ounce, then a 1Kg bar or coin is roughly $12,860. So smaller items may appeal depending on whether you consider these aspects to be important to you. As far as branding goes - the folks above me nailed it. Whatever you do (just in my opinion), don't buy anything "off the wall" - make sure it's legit, and easily recognised/accepted - consider you live in Australia, and the golden rule in my book is to make most of your stuff "local". So, as folks said, Perth Mint is always a good choice, then followed by other "well known and accepted" - e.g. PAMP, Ainslie etc.
Go for a spread maybe to include 1oz, 10oz, 20oz, 1kg and a few specials such as 10oz bullion coins. Cheapest place to buy a bulk deal would probably be Bullion Club (talk to Charlene) for basic bars - if & when the POS does rise the difference in value between Perth & BC will be pretty marginal given the cost savings you'll have made at initial purchase price. Remember 999 or 9995 silver is all the same & at the end of the day it's metal purity that's most important. Perhaps start with a few 10oz's and some cheap 1oz bars to get into the swing of things. Once you're comfortable with holding think about increasing your stack with a few 1kg's or perhaps some 10oz bullion coins. I don't necessarily agree that if POS goes to $400 selling kg's will be a problem because to use the old adage 'gold is the currency of kings - silver is the currency of gentlemen' - and one of the trends in the silver mkt over the last 4-5 years has been a migration of would-be gold buyers into silver, not only because it's cheaper but because of the increased awareness that the POS has been artificially suppressed for such a long time, hence has further to travel in terms of potential % increase in value (relatively) to gold. (This is also the main reason why China & India are scooping-up so much phys silver right now too - it's the cost of entry relative to gold that makes Ag attractive... and you're talking in China alone about a middle-class which is 300 million strong - in India now that's around 75 million - and both rising very very rapidly...) (See http://goldsilver.com/article/the-more-gold-the-west-sells-the-more-china-is-buying/ & http://www.beaconequity.com/smw/14058/Silver-Price-Silver-Tsunami-from-India ) There's also as far as i can see no shortage in the market currently of buyers for 1kg gold bars at $56k apiece, so one would expect those that may have previously been aiming to buy gold to target silver as a primary alternative, so a 1kg bar at $13k represents say 7.5oz of gold at today's prices, if you get my drift, ie: roughly a quarter of the weight of a 1kg silver bar. Projack (top guy!) made a very good point to me when we met recently though - and that's the issue of portability - 1.5kg of silver right how is worth approx 1oz of gold - which could be a small bar or a coin, so if that's a consideration you might want to split your stack into ($ value-wise) 1/3 gold & 2/3 silver or 1/4 gold & 3/4 silver... Hang around here & don't be afraid to ask questions - everyone here is (generally) friendly & very helpful Best of luck x
That was a very nice and informative post VRS. I have to say I do like your posts and appreciate the time you must spend finding the snippets you add to this forum. You certainly keep me more informed than I otherwise would be. Thank you.
difference is ~$14 , if you know where i can buy 2 X 1/2 oz dragons NOW for under ~$14 please do tell
Even if it was possible to buy them below spot (~$28/oz)... Consider that a 1kg Tiger is worth at least (very lowball, you won't get it at this price) $1350 and 2 x 1/2oz Tiger is worth at most $70-75 you would still be ahead with the 1kg coin than the 1kg bar which is around $1200 retail right now combined with the 1/2oz = $1275.
I just noticed that our buddy Ade @ Bullionaire in Melbourne has some 2oz Rabbit coins for $90 each or $430 for 5 - great price - they'd be a nice starter along with a few 10oz bars - He also has 10oz dragons at $380-ish on tens just FYI - if you explain you're new to the game he may do you a favour though, as I know these are a bit more at Bullionmoney $396 I think, but Ossie deffo will sell you singles - Adrian 0411 520 738 - Current price of 10oz NTR minted bars at KJC is $396 - Bullion Club cast bar 10oz's are $364 - so you see there's quite a difference - shop around. If you need any more help feel free to PM me and I'll put you in touch with some of my contacts. I'm not selling at the moment - I'm still accumulating for 2012 - only plan to sell a few of the Perth Mint Coloured Dragon Bullion 9-Coin sets before Xmas to pay for a trip back to UK with wife & kids as looks like my Ma's not going to make it thru to the New Year - one of THOSE trips I'm afraid - Ho-hum. Such is Life. x
Hi VRS - many many thanks for your help and great postings (not just on this thread btw) - that earlier comprehensive though was excellent and helped me crystallize my thinking. Very sorry to hear about your mother ... best wishes for you and your family. (I was in the UK myself earlier this year myself for my Dad's 80th - luckily he & Mum are both in good health) I appreciate you posting back with some deals - I've opened an account now at Perth Mint & Bullion Club earlier today (and sending off the notarised docs after this post here) - I'm buying through our SMSF initially which tends to complicate things as receipts & tracking the purchase needs to be through those accounts (and the SMSF doesn't have a credit card!). Your tip about prices & Bullion Club got me doing more research, thanks. Quick question about delivery & then storage - I'll try to be vague about this obviously! Since delivery is likely to be to a "home" address ... and the box might be ... ummm ... "heavy" and have an obvious origin - how do people here handle the storage if they have the physical "on hand", especially if the courier knows your address? Any tips? And then once you have it ... then what? Buried? In a safe? (I have no plans to go anywhere near a bank deposit box for many many reasons) Finally ... with Silver being heavy ... delivery costs seem to be high (which is why I was thinking of a trip to Brisbane - which then takes care of a reasonably anonymous address - ie no-one knows where the PM will be heading back to) ... how do you guys minimise your freight fees when buying? So many questions ... And yes, VRS, I'll probably PM you at some point, again, many thanks ... I'm quite enjoying this even if it's a steep learning curve at first. (Might change my screen name too since you all seem to have names that would be more at home in Dungeons & Dragons ... I don't need to be that easily identified in public haha)
put it in a vault and you'll have trouble with delivery to a home address unless someone is there to sign for it. your bank should offer one, there might be other private providers in the area. always consider how much of this stuff you have in your home you don't want to be a target. never tell anyone if it is there you can always bury it
Get your stuff delivered to work. Perth Mint - at least back when I used to deal with 'em direct, sent via courier (Aust Air Express), and it was pretty innocently packaged. Works well, especially if you work at a place that could take or use heavy items in their ordinary course of business
Robert, to clarify the thing with dragons is that the premium they have over other similar coins (kookaburras etc) is only a small amount. What was described above is correct. Its a chance to be numismatic. But what that means for Dragons specifically is that 2012 is the "Year of the Dragon" in China, and there's like bazillions of Chinese who think its really good luck and stuff. The Chinese are also beginning to wake up to the precious metals markets, which all by itself is gonna really raise the price. Add to that a very nice looking coin which has a dragon on it and "2012 Year of the Dragon" with the Chinese symbol, etc... this particular coin is very likely to sell for heaps to Chinese who like such things, especially next year. Put it this way: I just bought ten 10oz dragons for $361 each and if you look on Ebay, they sell for about $500 already. And if the whole thing dies out and it doesn't become super sought after, well, the premium was only a couple bucks over the kooks, and its easy enough to get your money back out of them whenever you want. Welcome to precious metals collecting! There's no better place to put your cash.
Definitely shop around. NTR 10oz bars for under USD$348 here...but they're not local to you. http://www.goldmart.com/bullion-1/silver-bullion/silver-bars-1-oz-1-000-oz.html Robert, if you are looking to aquire kilos in big chunks, check out the 1000oz bricks for 49cents over spot. In stock, ready to ship!
Yep absolutely - And whatever the import have a look at this thread here - Projack's got it covered on the import technicalities http://forums.silverstackers.com/viewtopic.php?pid=3940 Cheers x
