So many fakes on Lloyds auctions

Discussion in 'Fakes & Counterfeits' started by preworkoutstacker, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. preworkoutstacker

    preworkoutstacker New Member

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    Hey guys, Ive bought a fair few things off this auction site. What annoys me though is the high number of fakes on there. I always watch the sell prices and every week there is fake gold being sold on there, Feel bad for the people buying it. I contacted them and said selling counterfeit currency was illegal which they replied
    "Whilst high volumes of incoming products prevent us from testing every incoming item individually -Lloyds do not knowingly sell faulty items. Inspection is welcomed" I highly doubt that makes any difference.

    Here is an example https://www.lloydsonline.com.au/LotDetails.aspx?smode=0&aid=6257&lid=1076945&pgn=3&pgs=100

    Apologies if in the wrong section. Didn't want to give my secret buying place away as you can get some good deals but I feel worse for the people buying all the fakes.
     
  2. dragafem

    dragafem Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    at least these days they state its a filler...
     
  3. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    I bet it does legally. The same would go for the likes of ebay.
    They cannot be expected to test every item for authenticity, although they would have legal onus is someone reports an item as stolen/fake etc.
     
  4. preworkoutstacker

    preworkoutstacker New Member

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    Yeah "FILLER" was a good add.

    Silver they get so much fake stuff though and some of it is so so obvious, You would think they could hire someone to check what they sell.
     
  5. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    That would just make them liable! They are't dumb.
     
  6. preworkoutstacker

    preworkoutstacker New Member

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    So they just go ahead and keep selling fake silver / gold. As someone does check it to write a description etc. Like you said they are not dumb. Profits are profits i guess.
     
  7. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

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    The Coin Auction yesterday was breathtaking, in that I spotted at least a dozen fake gold coins, and it looked like quite a few fake shillings and florins.
    1268096.jpg This one was an easily-spotted "PCCB" slab - US$8.69 on aliexpress

    1268104.jpg US$14.50 for five as above.

    How about some Discover Australia Gold coins?
    1271030.JPG 1271038.JPG 1271048.JPG US$12.99 for ten
    or a Kangaroo?
    1272260.JPG 1272264.JPG US$43.99 for twenty
    Sovereign?
    1272262.JPG

    Let's assume that Lloyds are not in any way culpable for allowing punters to buy fakes at a fraction of the price of the real thing - I didn't bother keeping track, but some of these went for hundreds of dollars. Surely Perth Mint are slightly interested in tracking the clowns who are shipping these in and selling them on consignment? There are six here that are breaching federal law.

    And then there were the rare Australian shillings and florins, pennies et al.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
  8. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    Fake coins, generally seen...
    Is there anybody out there, that would voluntarely - knowing in advance, purchase 1?
    Let alone a whole set / tube / whatever?
    And imagine somebody actually would...
    That's some1.
    Not exactly a market / crowd / customer base.
    Then how can any firm achieve a production / amount, that would make it profitable, at such limited quantities?
    Doesn't that make any description put in a for-sale of such fake(s), irrelevant?
    Just already producing / offering fake coins, is bogus on its own, regardless 'filler' or whatever keyword put in the description.
    The entire imitation/fake chain on the marketplace's motivation can only be scamming people.
    And IF some1 would actually purposely purchase/order fakes, it has to be as an insertion in that chain. Another scammer, buying from a higher supply level scammers...
     
  9. dragafem

    dragafem Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    good action taken BB.very good
     
  10. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    Well done.
    Do that's a public admission that they were fake?
    Are they going to cancel the sale and alert the buyers?
     
  11. bubblebobble2

    bubblebobble2 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    love it how it says in description - "....authenticity unknown"... almost those coins in listing says this... I guess they're just trying to make a buck or two.
     
  12. dragafem

    dragafem Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    yeah I love the description too-filler or gold and silver colored.they are selling high value stuff lately why bother with these?
     
  13. harry_mr

    harry_mr Member

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    I have personally reported this to Lloyds of them selling fakes, as has a reputable coin dealer I know. I even took it to the police as Lloyds had gold fakes advertised as 'coins'. Lloyd's response was just that: 'We do not knowingly sell fakes, the police said its buyer beware....... and so the scams continue.
     
  14. dragafem

    dragafem Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    did ebay stop selling "fakes" hence a heaps of effort from numerous members? why would they?
     
  15. harry_mr

    harry_mr Member

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    Put it this way, I emailed and personally spoke to a manager in the coin section and showed him the evidence of fake coins and fraud over 6 months ago. As well the coin dealer I visited had already previously contacted the Federal police and told them the same thing before I spoke to him, now they mightn't 'knowingly sell fakes' but they do sell them. I said to the cops if I unknowingly sell fake brand name leather handbags at the markets and I don't know they are fake, even though they only cost me a dollar out of china then It's ok? "Its buyer beware"...... their words.
     
  16. Sykes

    Sykes New Member

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    It's still going on. I got caught out myself buying sight unseen. However Lloyd's have offered a refund. If reporting you have to go to the afp to get results. Counterfeiting is more of a federal offence. Doesn't matter what wording is used in the listing you aren't allowed to sell counterfeit currency.
     
  17. harry_mr

    harry_mr Member

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    Will be interested to see if they do refund because they did not tell me the same.
     
  18. Mint Silver Coins

    Mint Silver Coins New Member

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    100% PEACE OF MIND METHOD FOR TESTING PRECIOUS METALS + BEST WAY TO GET REFUND FROM EBAY ON FAKE PRECIOUS METALS

    I have done an enormous amount of research into counterfeit Coins. And as a result of this I have compiled a complete list of metals and their Specific Gravity's into an excel file, all you need to do is enter the dry weight and the wet weight of any % purity and of any shaped metal (even jewelry). Anyone who wants a free copy emailed to them please contact: Toni from "Mint Silver Coins".

    The S.G. Formula is Dry Weight divided by Suspended Wet Weight which will give you the Specific Gravity of any metal ...... eg. 36.60g Dry weight divided by 3.50g Suspended Wet Weight = 10.46 (which falls with the 0.2% error rate of 10.46 - 10.50) as 999 Silver has a S.G. of 10.48 - so by that result, you can be rest assured it is genuine. If more than one of the Weight, Measurement or Specific Gravity Values are out - then that is the tell-tale indicator.

    What I personally do is start with the Manual Ping Test which is done in unison with the Frequency Ping Test on my smart phone app - if it passes that, then I do the Weight, Diameter and Width Tests. But if any of these tests fail, then I go straight to the Specific Gravity Test. A Fake Coin/Bar made from Anti-Friction Metal will be slightly out, on at least one of the tests, whether it be that it is a fraction less in width or diameter to make the metal match the weight and the S.G. - or in reverse the weight and the S.G. is slightly out to make the diameter and width measurements correct.

    All you need to use this excel file, is a set of 000.00g Digital Scales and either a finicky piece of cotton to suspend the coin/bar in water or a wire coat-hanger bent in the right way as a permanent suspension stand (picture instructions are provided). If you don't have a set of coin scales - (I have lots available as I offer 5pc Precious Metal Testing Kits to my buyers on Ebay).

    By entering the values of the Dry and Wet Weights (of the coin/bar/odd shape being tested) into the excel file, it will instantly give you the Specific Gravity results - the Specific Gravity Test is even more accurate than those very expensive x-ray spectrometer machines.

    SPECIFIC GRAVITY'S OF SILVER

    S.G. of 50% Silver = 9.64
    S.G. of Molybdenum = 10.19
    S.G. of 80% Silver = 10.13
    S.G. of 90% Silver = 10.31
    S.G. of 92.5% Silver = 10.37
    S.G. of 99.90 Silver = 10.48
    S.G. of 99.99 Silver = 10.49
    S.G. of Anti-Friction Metal Alloy Types = 9.13 - 10.60 (which covers all grades of silver)

    Most of the Silver-Plated Counterfeit Coins these days (especially those from China) are made from Anti-Friction Metal (which is a smelted mix of Alloys). In the old days fakes were generally made from Silver-Plated Molybdenum or other magnetic metals, but the technology of Alloys has greatly advanced since then (which is no wonder when you take into account all the Chemistry Majors with Engineering Degrees that the Universities churn out these days).

    Because the various types of Anti-Friction Metal Alloys are designed to closely match the range of the S.G. for the purity of each counterfeited coin type - these "fake" coins will pass all stand-alone tests including the Neodymium Magnet Test, the Digital Scales Weight Test, the Digital Caliper Measurement Test and even the very expensive Spectrometer X-ray Test. Thus the only reliable tool we have available is the Specific Gravity Test.

    The Frequency Ping Test is commonly used for testing Silver and is generally performed via Manual Ping Test which compares the sound of one coin/bar against the sound of another coin/bar that is "known" to be real (eg. purchased direct from a Mint). Please note: with the Manual Ping Test - rather than spin the coin on a wooden surface, it is better to balance the coin on the end of your pointer finger and tap it gently with a coin/bar of the same purity. Genuine Silver should have a long sweet on-going ring, any dull sounding short rings are cause for concern.

    There are some fairly good apps out there, I personally use the "BULLION TEST" app which you can get for Free, but the upgrade version (which is only a couple of dollars) has a greater variety of named coins in both Gold & Silver. (I have no affiliation to this app, I am just recommending it because it works) and there may be better apps out there - (if you know of a good or better Frequency Ping Test app, please add it to this thread).

    Many of these Counterfeit Coin Manufacturers have exact Replica Silver-Plated Coins/Bars available for $2 each or less for bulk buys; on a particular Chinese selling platform where the Manufacturers openly brag that their "replica" coins/bars are so exact, that they can pass any test, including the x-ray test.

    Even Pawn Shops and Coin Dealers are frequently "fooled" by the Counterfeits made from the new Silver-Plated Anti-Friction Metals (which are also a silver colour on the inside). And this is also why many of the even big name auction sites and selling platforms state "Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware" and the onus is on the buyer to "prove" that their purchase is a counterfeit/fake.

    Also available on this Chinese Site are counterfeit replicas of limited Mintage Coins which are minted in 999/9999 Silver; which flood the market with far more in excess than the original mintage limit, which devalues the genuine item. I have also seen exact replicas of Logo'd Cases, Boxes, Frames, Illustrated Shippers, Certificates, Presentation Packaging, etc. openly available for sale. But because they are sold as replica's, tokens, commemorative coins etc. both the Chinese selling platform and manufacturers appear to avoid any repercussions, but the buyers who "knowingly" purchase these counterfeits, inevitably turn up as sellers on sites such as Ebay or auction them on sites such as Lloyds.

    This will never change, until selling platforms such as Lloyds and Ebay have the Federal Police prosecute the sellers for "knowingly" buying plated counterfeit legal tender for resale on their selling platforms at a huge profit (this can be proven by bank account transactions made to this particular Chinese site and shouldn't ensnare unwitting buyers of pre-owned metals). But Ebay and others of that ilk, couldn't care less and put the onus on the unsuspecting buyers to prove that the coins/bars they received were fake - within the 30 day time frame. And even worse after the buyer has proved their case, the only way for the buyer to get their refund is by being forced to return the "fakes" to the unscrupulous seller, who will only to relist them again, once they are returned.

    This was until I discovered that you can demand a "Statutory Declaration Resolution" from Ebay, where upon after "proving" to Ebay via visual evidence that the item is "fake" (pics of dry & wet weight of the coin on the scales and the S.G. result, pic of incorrect dimension/width via Digital Calipers, pic of the 'X' on the failed frequency test result on the Ping Test app). Once that has been established you can ask Ebay to send you a Stat. Dec (for the State that you live in) then you fill it out and take it to your local court house to be signed by a Justice of the Peace and hand in the counterfeit item/s to be disposed of at the Court House (this is noted on the Stat. Dec.) Then you attach a copy of the scanned signed Stat. Dec to the reply message and submit it to Ebay, where upon you can get your refund and the dodgy seller, doesn't get his coins back to resell them again.

    The only thing missing is that the Federal Police should have to investigate all Counterfeit Legal Tender that has been handed in - they should, but they don't - not to my knowledge anyway, as I have never been contacted about it, even though both my details and the sellers details were on the Stat. Dec.

    I hope this information helps the community on this forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  19. Aladin

    Aladin New Member

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    If you get scammed by Lloydsonline auctions you do have the right to contest the item and request a full refund. Yes Lloyds will reject your claim and will use every excuse under the sun not to refund you your moneys. Heres an option that does work. Ive used it twice and both times it hasnt failed me. Head to your bank (in my case the CBA) and check to see if they cover you for online purchases and fraud. Lloyds tried to rip me off on a set of tyres which I won from their online auction that had major damage to the sidewalls and could not be mounted on any rim due to the extreme danger factor involved. Admittedly Lloyds said they would refund the money but 3 weeks further down the track I was still out of pocket and when I approached them again they became very aggressive. I went to my bank (CBA) and lodged a claim through them. Within a week the money appeared in my account and the CBA closed the case for me. This is where I commend the CBA. When I thought all was lost the CBA was fantastic at recouping my money. The second case was an antique clock which ended up being defective and did not work. Once again Lloyds spat the dummy and told me to bugger off. I went to the CBA and they once again resolved the issue in my favour. Wow I was so pleased. Lloyds thought they had the upper hand. They try all tricks to avoid refunding moneys. YOU do have rights and purchasing items online is a tricky at the best of times. Lloyds sells lots of rejected and damaged items under false pretenses which falls under the category of false advertising and ultimately defrauding people to make a sale. DONT fall for Lloyds bully boy tactics. Just because they have put a small clause under the listing description it dosent make them non liable for damages or exempt from you attaining a full refund. After my last claim Lloyds has cancelled my account (PMSL) with them as they didnt like the idea that I found a way to attain the refund which I was legally entitled to.
    If you are tearing out your hair and you are on a tight budget like all of us and you have been defrauded and you are at a loss what to do then I would encourage you to approach your financial institution and see if they can recoup the money for you. I wouldnt leave it to long as there may be time limits restraints on how long you can wait before you cant make a claim. Its worth the time you spend at the bank. I couldve lost close to $1000. I didnt have to return the items and Lloyds even tried to harass me after the money was returned to my account. Because the bank acted on my behalf I directed them back to the CBA as any ongoing dispute from Lloyds is now not my problem or issue. Hence why they cancelled my account (PMSL). He who laughs last laughs the loudest. Its a great feeling know I won against the asswipes of society. The more people who show businesses like Lloyds that there is a way to step around their BS then the better buying and safety experiences we will have. I am now looking at a way to involve the ACCC to hold Lloyds accountable for fraudulent and deceptive business practices. Please report all malpractice to the ACCC so they can act on our behalves....... Recently Lloyds was fined $37000 for exorbitant credit card charges between March 2017 and November 2018.
     
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