Rhodium vs Silver

Discussion in 'Platinum' started by DAB, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. DAB

    DAB New Member

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    Which one of these would you prefer?
    Silver is obviously much more liquid and spreads are lower.
    Rhodium is difficult to buy and it illiquid but when it moves, it moves and price is so low now with worldwide dis-inflation or deflation stories around.
     
  2. Caput Lupinum

    Caput Lupinum Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Rhodium is as rare as hen's teeth in Australia and being subjected to GST and customs fees being over $1000 an ounce doesn't make it attractive as it could be. I'd be interested to know if anyone knows any dealers in Australia who sell Rhodium on a regular basis in bar or coin form. I don't know of any
     
  3. get2gether

    get2gether New Member

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  4. get2gether

    get2gether New Member

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    From this site, If you buy 5oz or more, it appears to include free delivery (from US). Count me in for 1oz. The bullion bars are either 1oz or 5oz from Baird & Co, a quality product. As of todays price @ $1140 per oz. These are a rare product, believe me. Hang on to them for a few years, and sky is the limit. As stated above, this metal reached OVER $10.000 a few years ago!

    http://www.libertygoldandsilver.com/rhodium-baird-bullion-bar-1oz.htm
     
  5. beeteecee

    beeteecee New Member Silver Stacker

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    Get2gether, are you sure about that? I thought (pure) gold, silver, platinum are the investment grade metals that can be gst free.

    If gst applies on a metal import, do they work on the spot value at the time they are assessing the import?
     
  6. danman49

    danman49 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    If it is over $1000 as declared on the package then it will attract GST on the declared/invoiced price, not the value at the time of assesment noting that Rhodium is not considered a precious metal:

    "A New Tax System (Goods and Services Tax) Act 1999
    (GST Act) defines precious metals for GST purposes. Only
    gold (99.5% fine), silver (99.9% fine) and platinum (99%
    fine) in an investment form are precious metals under the
    GST Act. (Fineness quoted is the minimum that applies)
    Under the GST Act, at the time of importation, precious metals
    are not subject to assessment for, or payment of, GST1.
    Imported precious metals, whether bullion or coins, have
    a free duty rate, which means no duty is payable."

    http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/files/ImportingPreciousMetalCoinsandBullions.pdf May 2012 - Customs
     
  7. Caput Lupinum

    Caput Lupinum Active Member Silver Stacker

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    So for example if I were to import $900 of Rhodium, I wouldn't have to pay GST but I would still have to pay a duty tax as it's not considered a PM. If I was to import $1100 of Rhodium, I would have to pay both GST and a duty tax?
     
  8. get2gether

    get2gether New Member

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    s

    At this moment I cannot confirm weather Rhodium is classed as precious metal, though Platnim and Pallidium certainly are. It certainly has the same uses: Rhodium metal is silvery white. Rhodium has a higher melting point and lower density than platinum. It is a major component of industrial catalytic systems

    99.5% purity of coins or bullion does NOT attract GST, though if it is classed as "proof", then GST is payable, as recently I questioned Gold Stackers on the introduction of GST on "proof" Silver Bullet Sivler Sheild Series (SBSS) coins that they import (A beautiful & uniques series of coins). Believe it or not, GST is also payable on pre-decimal coinage prior 1946 (92.5% silver). Also check out the Perth Mint prices for their proof coins, ALL include GST in the pricing! That's why there so expensive.

    Silver or Gold coins imported that are NOT proof attract NO GST. Other wise we would all be getting charged already

    As for Import Duty, I have made various purchases of all sorts of goods over $1000, and have not been charged Duty, though I am not buying overseas everyday either. If arrangements are made for the item to be posted, who is there to collect the duty? If you wish to have dilivery by the ship load or collected from an airport, then I would highly suspect an inquiry may be forthcoming as to duty payable. Common sense should set the scene here, and, I am NOT advocating for you to break the Law!
     
  9. beeteecee

    beeteecee New Member Silver Stacker

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    g2g, if you read the first paragraph of danman's pdf link, you will see clearly that paladium and rhodium aren't classed as precious metals,
     
  10. get2gether

    get2gether New Member

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    Extract from the pdf above"

    "Proof and other numismatic (collectable) coins of gold, silver and platinum are usually traded at prices largely determined by their rarity, condition and beauty. These coins may be acquired for investment purposes but they are not precious metal coins in an investment form. If you import a consignment of coins with a value of more than A$1,000 it is subject to assessment for GST but no duty applies" (meaning "Proof and numismatic" attract no duty.)
    Note it says COINS, not bars!
    So, if you can aqure Proof or Numismatic Rhodium or Palladium coins there is NO DUTY?. And although Rhodium and Palladium are not included in the first paragraph, note the following, it also states "Under the GST Act, at the time of importation, precious metals are not subject to assessment for, or payment of GST" Further, In par 2 it does state that if the metal is traded "Precious metals must be in a form that is tradeable on the international bullion market. Precious metals in an investment form carry a mark or characteristic that guarantees its fineness and...." which, both Palladium and Platnium fit into this catagory, though who knows with Rhodium. As far as I am aware, it used to be traded and also had a spot price and it certainly carrys a mark and finness as quoted above, but who knows today, this world changes that fast its impossible to keep up with sometimes.

    Yes, it's all about as clear as mud, what else would one expect from a Government Department? So Monday morning I am phoning the ATO to clarify via the horses mouth, and will lay out exactly what our intentions are here. I would expect a response within the week and will post back for those interested. I would really like one of those Rhodium Bars to stick away for the future!
    :)
     
  11. beeteecee

    beeteecee New Member Silver Stacker

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    Good on you get2gether :) Well I hope you're right because I wouldn't mind one myself either. I've got a doubtful feeling though. Good luck.
     
  12. gooby

    gooby New Member Silver Stacker

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    It actually seems (mostly) fairly clear to me. Your quote mentions only coins of gold, silver and platinum... "coins of gold, silver and platinum [...]. These coins...". I think it's pretty clear that it refers only to gold, silver and platinum coins for the purposes of being exempt from import duty. It says elsewhere that "Precious metals have a free duty rate and are not subject to assessment for GST at the time of importation (no duty or GST is payable). Proof coins, other collectable coins and jewellery made of gold, sliver or platinum are not precious metals (duty and/or GST is payable unless a concession or exemption applies)."

    The GST Ruling 2003/10 (http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=GST/GSTR200310/NAT/ATO/00001) says in section 8 that a 'precious metal' is: (a) gold (in an investment form) of at least 99.5% fineness; or (b) silver (in an investment form) of at least 99.9% fineness; or (c) platinum (in an investment form) of at least 99% fineness; or (d) any other substance (in an investment form) specified in the regulations of a particular fineness specified in the regulations."

    (d) may seem promising, but section 9 says, quite unambiguously, that "No regulations have been made to specify any other substance. To be precious metal for GST purposes, the metal must therefore be gold, silver or platinum."

    I'd be surprised if the definition of 'precious metal' was not consistent across the legislation. I'm pretty sure that it mentions coins and not bars in reference to collectable coins as precious metal in investment form (i.e. bullion, bullion coins, etc) is discussed elsewhere. You might also notice that even jewellery made from gold, silver and platinum are not considered 'precious metals' and both GST and duty apply.

    Essentially, nothing other than .995 gold, .999 silver and .990 platinum are defined as 'precious metals' by the taxation legislation and, even then, only in certain forms. So, even though rhodium and palladium may be traded as precious metals to an extent, our law doesn't recognise/define them as such for taxation purposes. Definitions of fairly common terms are often different in legislation to in common use.

    I probably should mention that I'm not a lawyer and it would be interesting to hear what the ATO tells you.
     
  13. danman49

    danman49 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Not sure if there is a "duty tax" involved but anything that is not considered exempt and is over $1000 will cop the GST on the invoiced amount. Duties can be found here... goodluck! http://www.customs.gov.au/tariff/tariff2012.asp
     
  14. DAB

    DAB New Member

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    Where can you buy Rhodium online bars? In Europe there are 2 places as far as I am aware (Baird's & Degussa). Both 40-50% higher than spot price which comparing to US PM dealers (not shipping internationally) is extremelly expensive.
     
  15. ozcopper

    ozcopper Administrator Staff Member

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  16. LovingtheSilver

    LovingtheSilver Active Member Silver Stacker

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    If I was to get into rhodium I wouldn't bother with physical, would do kitco pool account if it's still around.
     
  17. PhilDaSilva

    PhilDaSilva New Member

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    I would get that in writing if I were you, at the very least an email as not all Government agencies and their staff are as well trained or knowledgeable as we would like, this seems to be very much the case at the moment with regards to UK customs and import VAT on silver Bullion and Numi coins the latter of which 'should' only attract a 5% tax premium, unfortunately UK customs tend to lump everything into the 20% VAT bracket and reclaiming is a long, tedious and frustrating process by all accounts. You will need at the very least a quote of chapter and verse of law regarding this issue and how it applies to your items/material.

    However be prepared to state your case in writing and definitely give notice that you will charge 'Administration Fees' (make sure said fee's are extortionate) should they get it wrong, this should guarantee that if you do import anything of such high value they will ensure that 'management' take a look at the case and ensure you pay the right tax, if not see a decent tax accountant.

    If the government agency misinforms you to your subsequent loss having acted on it then sue the buggers and tell them that you will do so when you make your initial enquiry as they have a duty of care to give correct information and are liable under common law if not (email is great for this as you have an unimpeachable record of enquiry etc), I plan to investigate similar with regards to certain UK islands and so on. Don't forget government enterprises/offices are companies that are run for a profit at your expense, they are not there to help you despite what they may claim otherwise!! (least they are in the UK with politicians appointing their respective cronies to such lucrative posts/agencies)

    Funnily enough I have a little 70/30 Pt/Rh alloy but am not selling though its industrial scrap an not pretty though very very shiny and I may use a little for plating some jewelery as a little go's a long way but looks stunning.

    From what I have read around the net, the huge price spike of rhodium in 2008 was due to a car manufacturer selling out all there rhodium stock and then having to purchase again to make the catalytic convertors with, though I can only qualify this as hearsay, although its allover a certain Canadian PM forum iirc.

    E2a: Grammar.
     
  18. OgNasty

    OgNasty New Member

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    I was buying rhodium for $1,100 an oz a year ago, and now the same source is charging $1,500. A little strange.
     

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