[RESULTS] NCS/NGC HIGHLIGHTS 12th Round (BIG Pics,MS69 2000 1/4oz Mir)

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by yennus, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Blessed from Heaven! Share in my joy. Possibly one of the best results so far.

    Many thanks to up above, and the people at NGC!

    And of course all of you, for your kind words of support and for your interest in Pandas! Thank you all, so so much!

    1/4oz Gold 2000 Mirror Panda MS69 (BU Est. <500) (MS69 pop. 14; no MS70s) [Low est. >$7000; High est. >$8000] <-- awesome result!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    1/2oz Silver 1995 LD Panda MS70 (MS70 pop. 5) (BU Est. unknown) [Low est. $1500; High est. >$2000]
    [​IMG]

    1/20oz Platinum 2003 Panda MS70 (MS70 pop. 16) [Low est. >$300; High est. >$400]
    [​IMG]

    1oz Silver 2001D Panda MS70 (MS70 pop. 26) (BU Est. <33,000) [Low est. >$1500; High Est. >$2500]
    [​IMG]

    Bronze 1991 Panda Medal MS67 (MS67 pop. 5; highest score is MS68 pop.1)
    [​IMG]
     
  2. shano73

    shano73 Member

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    Wow nice score on the 2000 Mirror Yennus, that is awesome :)

    Ok now Im definately thinking of sending in my good OMPs to get graded lol

    I'm just drooling at some of the results your getting atm

    Well done bud :)
     
  3. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Shano73! :)
     
  4. Austacker

    Austacker Active Member

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    Awesome, you deserve it.

    I think the above comment also highlights a potential to get coins in. As more people see the results they then send in more coins. Potentially upping populations in the higher grades.

    Food for thought.

    Now your dilemma do you sell or keep ?
     
  5. madaw1

    madaw1 Well-Known Member

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    This is awesome result- mirror 2000 --Yennus will you consider to sell?
     
  6. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Austacker!

    Most Pandas are for sale (at the right price) :)
     
  7. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks madaw1! :)

    Yep, will selling at a fair price :)
     
  8. Reggie Perrin

    Reggie Perrin New Member

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    Wow! We're going to run out of superlatives if you keep posting results like this. :) I'm envious of all of them..

    Boy have I got a lot of collecting to do to catch up (like that'll ever happen :) )
     
  9. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

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    Holy cow!
    You make it look easy, I think we know it is not.
    I can not imagine how many coins you have looked at, bought & sent in.
    How many expensive disappointments you paid to get these...
    There is much hard work behind this success, congratulations!
     
  10. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Reggie Perrin!

    I'm very blessed. I happened to be in the right place at the right time. :)

    It wasn't very long ago that I only had a couple of silver 2009s and a sheet of silver 2010s - with very little cash.
     
  11. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Catseye!

    Yeah, it's taken a fair few Pandas and a lot of NGC bills to score these results. But not as many as I would have thought.

    Very true, a few expensive disappointments along the way.

    On one of my first runs, I bought a 1987 1oz Gold Panda - it deservedly scored "Details" (ie. even lower than a MS65!!!!).

    [​IMG]

    Yep, lots of practice. Seen soooo many Pandas over and over again (and I still haven't seen them all) - and I'm still not tired of them (which is a blessing).
     
  12. pandastacker

    pandastacker New Member

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    Yennus wins the lottery (again).

    It would be interesting to know how many coins were submitted to get the MS70s. Sometimes a submission will yield a large number of 70s. eg. Dealer Indywestcoins had a large number of MS70 pandas this summer that would be statistically impossible just based on populations-the populations of MS70s exploded above and beyond what they should have. Same thing happened to the gold bronze age coins. For years no MS70s, and then shortly after NGC starts grading in China the percentage of MS70 grades explodes. I dont think anyone would believe a hoard of MS70s was suddenly found. So MS70 grades are subjective.

    I heard where sheets of pandas were bought randomly, some by a dealer and some by a collector, the dealer gets 3 out of 10 graded 70 and the collector gets none.

    I know myself I have submitted large quantiity of post 2003 gold pandas, which generally grade very high, and while the coins visually appeared 68-70 grade, many came back 68 and less and no 70s. So when you submit 40 pandas from 2002 on, and when 30% of the coins are supposed to grade 68 and less (based on NGC populations) and then you get zero 70s and three 69s, you know that the MS70 lottery god wasnt smiling on you that day.

    I am fortunate of have some very high grade sets. I have the highest grade possible for the 1998 LD gold panda set for example. But its a bit of a crapshoot. I dont think anyone should see these results and think 70's are easy to get.
     
  13. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Welcome to the Panda Forum pandastacker! Thanks for your thoughts.

    I recently inspected a hoard (>100x) of 1/10oz Gold 2003 Pandas. I was willing to purchase every single good one they had... unfortunately I could find 8 decent Pandas to purchase... I think more than 90% had problems that would score them MS66-MS68. Only 6 out of more than 100 I think will score MS69 or hopefully MS70.

    Hence I can understand that some sheets will perform much better than other sheets.

    Indeed, MS70s usually are very difficult to obtain.
     
  14. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

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    I often hear Chinese dealers & collectors refer to NGC as gambling and not in a good way.
    I think they may be on to something.
     
  15. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I know a dealer who received too many low scores and eventually gave up sending his coins to NGC.

    Often in China, an OMP coin can sell at a similar price to a MS69. But if you get an MS68 or lower, they often feel the need to sell at the same price as OMP or lower (so the dealer has lost the grading fee, postage, and some time).

    I think culture may be involved in the way people engage with NGC.

    For example, for many Chinese people, whitespots and slight dings are not as significant as they are for people outside of China. Hence when some of their coins score poorly, shock and disappointment often result.

    Prior to NGC/PCGS entering the MCC sector, many Chinese collectors played with their coins (like the Europeans).

    But now with the grading system firmly in place, people obviously try to take better care of their coins. However old habits are often hard to break.

    The other day, I was trying to teach some of the dealers to stop rubbing their Panda coins together, even when they are in OMP. These were with some older 1988 Gold Pandas. But for them, playing with their Pandas was part of enjoying their collection.

    I've seen hundreds, and maybe thousands, of perfectly good OMP Pandas destroyed as a result of poor handling - but the dealer had little idea of the damage they were doing (old school dealers/collectors).
     
  16. pandastacker

    pandastacker New Member

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    Als, the fact that dealers play the resubmission game to get a high grade on a coin proves that the standards are not as strict as they should be. Again, a dealer submitting hundreds of coins at bulk rates has the resources to resubmit coins. The average collector might not send in coins so often, and pays a high rate per coin, so the resubmission game doesnt provide as much of a return to the collector, even when successful.

    Ideally, the resubmission game wouldnt exist.
     
  17. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks for your thoughts Pandastacker. I do agree that it would be ideal if the "resubmission game" did not take place. However, I don't think resubmissions are overall very effective (except in cases where NGC/PCGS got it wrong... which is not often).

    1. I don't think that the "resubmission game" is very significant (in the Panda sector).

    If you look at the majority of Pandas (silver or gold), there are still very few MS70s.

    Using this recent submission as an example:
    1/4oz Gold 2000 Mirror Panda MS69 (BU Est. <500) (MS69 pop. 14; no MS70s) <-- No MS70s... so if someone has been playing the resubmission game here, they haven't been very successful.

    1/2oz Silver 1995 LD Panda MS70 (MS70 pop. 5) (BU Est. unknown) <-- Only 5x MS70s, out of a population of 260, which indicates only around 2% score MS70. I know for sure that most of these MS70s have not been resubmitted.

    1oz Silver 2001D Panda MS70 (MS70 pop. 26) (BU Est. <33,000) <-- Only 26x MS70s out of a population of 1150, which means only about 2% score MS70. Which demonstrates pretty low rates of MS70 success, and evidence that if people could consistently score MS70s by resubmitting lower graded coins that this technique isn't very effective.

    2. Resubmitting hundreds of coins, in the hopes of achieving more MS70s would not be profitable.
    i) Suppose you had 100x 1oz Silver 2001Ds, and all came back MS69.
    ii) You want to resubmit in the hopes of scoring some MS70s (at least 2%).
    iii) Suppose you are successful and score 2%:
    Avg. Resubmissions Costs: $3500AUD (initial submission fees)+$3500 (resubmission fees) = $7000AUD
    Avg. Worth of the 2x MS70s: $2500x2 = $5000
    Profit: -$2000 <-- yep, it's a loss.

    Thus I honestly believe that the fear is worse than the reality.
     
  18. Reggie Perrin

    Reggie Perrin New Member

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    I was reading that coin collecting started in Europe during the fourteenth century and was very much the preserve of the wealthy (The hobby of Kings), who liked to appreciate their collection by handling them ... allegedly many coins were so badly worn through handling you couldn't tell what type of coin they were.

    It must be a European gene thing, as I occasionally feel an almost pathological urge to rip a coin out of it's packaging and play with it. So perhaps yennus could add another section to his masterlist of coins, 'Fondling Pandas', a really badly scratched key date Panda would satisfy my desire to 'play' with my collection. :)
     
  19. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I completely understand and empathize with this urge to play with Pandas. :)
     

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