personally i am waiting for the availability of 2012 pandas (and perhaps an initial frenzy to subside) to exchange some generic bullion for pandas (i used to only believe in bullion but now i have been converted to medium premium numismatics). however, demand for pandas has resulted in increased mintage, decreased rarity. i understand that the overwhelming population and demand for pandas in china factor into this, but meanwhile britannias still have a mintage substantially below 1 million - they are not such a hot seller as pandas, but they are striking in their own right, affordable, and perhaps they'll never catch on, or, perhaps brittanias are a sleeper. of course diversifying is a good idea - but check out these figures - below kookaburra mintages (which have been in the 300k-350k per year for a decade) anyone have ideas about this series? Silver Britannia 1oz Coins Britannia 2011 .......................... 100,000.......Billowing Union Flag Britannia 2010 .......................... 100,000.......Corinthian Helmet Britannia 2009 .......................... 100,000.......Chariot Britannia 2008 .......................... 100,000.......Britannia on the Beach Britannia 2007 .......................... 100,000.......Seated Britannia & Lion Britannia 2006 .......................... 100,000.......Standing Britannia Britannia 2005 .......................... 100,000.......Seated Britannia Britannia 2004 .......................... 100,000.......Standing Britannia Britannia 2003 ........................... 73,271........Britannia's Helmet Britannia 2002 ........................... 48,816........Standing Britannia Britannia 2001 ........................... 44,816........Una and the Lion Britannia 2000 ........................... 81,301........Standing Britannia Britannia 1999 ........................... 69,394........Chariot Britannia 1998 ........................... 88,909........Standing Britannia Proof Britannia 1oz Coins Britannia 2011 .......................... 2,500..........Billowing Union Flag Britannia 2010 .......................... 2,500..........Corinthian Helmet Britannia 2009 .......................... 2,500..........Chariot Britannia 2008 .......................... 2,500..........Britannia on the Beach Britannia 2007 .......................... 2,500..........Seated Britannia & Lion Britannia 2006 .......................... 2,500..........Standing Britannia Britannia 2005 .......................... 1,539..........Seated Britannia Britannia 2004 .......................... 2,174..........Standing Britannia Britannia 2003 .......................... 2,016..........Britannia's Helmet Britannia 2001 .......................... 3,047..........Una and the Lion Britannia 1998 .......................... 2,168..........Standing Britannia Britannia 1997 .......................... 4,173..........Standing Britannia meanwhile, kookaburras too have a totally slim mintage compared to the recent glut of pandas ... i wonder how a few years will illuminate these disparities.
The Britannias are stunning coins, and I would be interested in collecting some... but I don't think they will do as well as the Pandas going forward. I could be wrong, but I don't see demand for Britannias taking off in Asia.
Buying from mint for britannia's equals a 20% VAT which does add the little question, am I guaranteed to make that bit of money to break even or so. Obviously if buying from somewhere else you dont really face that problem but here in UK from the mint it does make these couns a but more of a gamble.
Silvstack, Just started to get into the Britannia coins myself too. Adore the 2011 and the 2012 but I cannot get a projected mintage on the 2012. Not sure if it is going up way past the previous 100,000 or not. I read somewhere they had changed to unlimited but no one here seems to know. They do appear well under the radar and the minting appears to me as good as any. I wonder if the 958 purity puts enough people off not to see a jump in demand? I remember complaining to the mint a year or so ago about it not being 999 purity and they said that it was tradition and wouldn't be changing it ! It initially put me right off it but I have since come around.
I do think the 958 puts a fair few people off (not me tho), also the designs aren't getting any better so that's not helping. I only have one Britannia, I like the look of it but it doesn't make me feel like collecting the whole series. It just doesn't have that appeal of Chinese coins to me. Even with Perth Mint lunars I was, at times motivated to try and collect a set... so yeah I don't know why. Maybe it's like the Perth Mint koala, massive sleeper.
/show_off [imgz=http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/1870_brits.jpg][/imgz] sorry about the crappy photo Thanks Ladybird for the help with the 2012 Brit
Yeah, a lot has to do with the lack of 999 purity... I know the 958 is likely to put off lots of people in Asia. ... then there is the historical impact of British history in the region... despite a lot of good (and bad) that Britain did, not everyone appreciated being occupied by them... so that is likely to also have an impact on sales throughout the Asia region.
I think the whole 'issue' with purity for Britannias is silly. It still has the equivalent of 1 oz of pure silver in it. Britannias are gorgeous coins, but as mentioned above they do not sell as quickly. I still have a lot of them that I am trying to sell since I decided against completing my set. When you do find a Britannia collector, you can usually make a pretty good sale though. They are beautiful, and low mintage and because of that prices for older dates can get pretty high.
It is silly for the world market, but it does cause a frustrating legal quirk in Australia. 958 is not considered "investment grade bullion" in Australia, so any initial bullion value purchases you make will be subsequently taxed at 10% 999 is, so you can import a box of 2012 pandas, and not pay a cent of extra tax. For older numismatic coins, this is not an issue, because you will pay tax on either, but when you are buying the latest releases hoping for some premium to creep in over the years, you are instantly at a 10% disadvantage. This also extends to krugerrands and other legal tender bullion coins not 999 or better in purity.
The problem I see lately with Panda,s is there seems to be a little bit of a bubble as far as value goes IMO,I could be wrong, but as a student of fee bay auctions goes ,it seems like in the last 45days prices have increased 25% ,for common stuff ,a clunker 2008 bear out of OMP is going for 120% premium over melt, it feels overheated..... I have had an opportunity to make some decent size purchases off e bay with a couple of the bigger dealers in shanghai in the past .................... you contact them now to buy a substantial amount of coins off e bay and they quote you high retail, i just got a quote for 10ct sheet of 1989 bears 1180.00 usd............ and that was quoted to me with a wish list of over 10K in coins with someone I have done at least triple that in business with in the past, so I have a relationship with the dude. THAT IS HIGH RETAIL..... I hope I am wrong but I fear I am not...........any comments??
This is kinda off topic (pandas and britannias), but the price of Pandas in Shanghai have been accelerating upwards recently (as you have noted). I think it may be partially caused by the long wait for the 2012 1oz Silver Pandas; people that want to invest in Pandas are being forced into the vintage Pandas. From a number of dealers I do business with, many Panda years and varieties are simply no longer available. Maybe things are different in BeiJing and Guangdong, but in Shanghai, the Panda prices are on the rise. I think this is a good reflection of how things will be when the silver bull really starts running... that when silver is in short supply, and demand is high, the premium for Pandas will increase (not diminish).
I recall looking into these a while back and because of the VAT they were actually cheaper to buy from Perth Mint than here in the UK at the time . Was pretty amazed about that...... Rockin'
Wouldn't be surprised at the high retail from Chinese dealers, things seem pretty hot at the moment OR all the dealers are colluding to prop up the market (hopefully it's the former). Recently I was hoping to accquire Guan Yin and other MCC (sorry I don't only collect Pandas ) from dealers in China. When I first asked the price from one dealer, the price was listed as "$X". Soon after they raised the prices to "$X + $800" and finally they said "sorry we aren't selling; only have 1 set". The prices were higher than eBay and if I lived in the US I'd be able to get the coins for 50% of $X instead of 85% of $X. There are far too many MCCs in USA and far too few people (in USA) who can appreciate them. The prices for MCC outside of the US are going strong whereas in the US MS69 Gold pandas are going for melt because dumb sellers don't ship overseas.
Anybody want to swap some of their pandas for my brits? Trying to scale down the varieties I collect.
