NGC grading labels

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by SilverNole, May 21, 2016.

  1. numistacker

    numistacker Member

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    Mine wont reach them for a few weeks yet and sure as hell i wont pay $15 for a blue label. To me its just silly season and i remember as a kid when i used to collect stamps. Someone thought up the traffic light gutter pair. This needed to be from an unfolded sheet and in every sheet there was only one pair and I duly collected them all and put them in my album. In 1978 i was busy rushing to the post office on new issue day and stopping the post master from folding the sheet so i could buy the center strip in the middle with the traffic light. In 1980 the stamp market collapsed and traffic light gutter pairs became worthless. ER and FR are as contrived as a traffic light gutter pair - perhaps more so - and are a cynical marketing ploy. Business do need cynical marketing to make profit but making such plays can have unforseen consequences too. The number of new issues is beyond what the market can absorb and in an era where cash will become almost never used and where kids dont have change to collect - my feeling is that these gimmicks will die a death and if not quite a death - almost certainly will not make anyone cash apart from NGC and PCGS.

    I think it is intended to give gullible consumers choice - is this not the role of business? Surely it is the role of government and consumer protection to regulate and control? In my view these designations are inoffensive but ultimately worthless.
     
  2. Silverpv

    Silverpv New Member

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    Ultimately it is a choice that was most likely requested by dealers and there for added as a line item. Some coins I'll pay for the ER/FR designation to be put on the slab. But I would not be a buyer at more than the cost of grading. It begs the question who is ultimately the consumer of these labels. I have like 5 which I got very cheap to their current sale prices. I would be really interested to know who are paying the premiums for these.

    I did a recent video on the subject and everyone seems to think its a gimmick, but at the same time Red Core ER pandas go for over $200+ vs. $70, 2009 ER PL UHR St Gauden goes for $15k vs 4k, ER Libertads $120 vs $40 and the list goes on and on. I am not one of these consumers, but with market demand driving up prices when the cost to do this is fixed at $15 it seems like a no brainer as a value add. Facts are facts, there are consumers who buy it and I have a handful in my collection that have appreciated more than their counterparts.

    Should these labels die a slow death wouldn't that mean the overall market is in decline? New products need to be produced to gain additional market share or grow the market. There is a finite amount of coins that need to be graded/authenticated and that number continues to get smaller. So where does that leave the TPG's if they are screwed if they do and screwed if they don't with modern bullion.

    Or is change here to stay and the way to collect is different due to changes in consumer behavior for a different group...

    I think its fairly well known that a business that does not adapt positively will eventually collapse. This also makes me wonder if NGC/NCS consolidation was strategic or necessary.
     
  3. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I never suggested that there isn't some level of demand for ER, FR, FS labels.

    My main contention is that these terms/labels are marketing gimmicks. My secondary contention is that those who recognize that those terms/labels are gimmicks and yet keep silent, are part of the problem in the hobby in my view. I am not arguing that dealers/sellers who see those labels as gimmicks simply throw into the garbage all the slabbed coins they own with those labels....that would be a ridiculous thing to suggest. But it's a totally different thing that when the issue is being discussed and when there is an opportunity to express an opinion, to simply respond 'everything any business does is fine and dandy so long as I can personally benefit by selling it into the market'.


    As for values of coins in slabs with these hokey labels being significantly higher in value....I think no one has ever done a good or thorough analysis of this. Personally, since I have done no such research and have seen no such research, I am perfectly fine with stating that I don't know and also that it's possible that in most cases there is a marked value difference. But just because we can point to a couple examples of slabbed coins that may fit our argument doesn't mean that these examples don't amount to anything but anecdotal evidence....which I think that's all any of us have at this point....myself included.



    I would love to see the video you made silverpv.....maybe you make a convincing argument backed with good strong data. I'm more than willing to admit that my suspicions about the value of such labels is wrong if someone can show data which corroborates the claim that these labels consistently bring in higher sale prices in the aftermarket than ordinary labels of identical slabbed coins in the same exact grade.





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  4. Silverpv

    Silverpv New Member

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    I definitely did not make a convincing argument. LOL There's only a handful of people that see the resale value of it. Otherwise the majority think it is a marketing gimmick.

    Even for myself, I will only add the designation to coins that I know have a high probability to appreciate. Ie: libertads, pandas and speculate on gold mercuries/slq/walkers. I sent in 7 with 6 SP70's with FR designation.

    I do think i'll do a follow up on a few of the main coins to see how they do ER vs standard. I'll do a little digging as see if there is enough data to make a relevant sample set. Of course all sales data would be provided by eBay.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=827CZ6-d6FY[/youtube]
     
  5. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Video well done silverpv!



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  6. numistacker

    numistacker Member

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    I cant prove it but I am pretty sure that the cost for bulk slabbing is free or no more thatn $1 to have the designations. Buying them at the same price - yes no problem - but a private member paying $15 to have the special label is soooo unlikely to see that cash back never mind a profit.
     
  7. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    The TPG's do that for a few other countries, too..

    Some rather nice ones off the top of my head that I've seen are US, Mexico & Australia.


    All else being equal, I'd pay a few extra bucks for them. Though literally only $2-$3.. ;)
     
  8. Silverpv

    Silverpv New Member

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    You are correct, I just called and confirmed... They do charge differently when done in bulk. MS70's are charged higher and MS69's are charged lower. So if you get MS70's you are basically paying for the label as well in a bulk deal but less if it ends up a 69.

    This is actually quite encouraging to save up to do a large release and order and grade 100 at a time. It's basically a dealer special. So to the dealer it is a no cost option. The dealers and secondary market dictates the pricing on it as most hobbyist submitters it is price restrictive.
     
  9. numistacker

    numistacker Member

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    I am aware that any similar qualifies for bulk slabbing so 100 x Pandas of any shapes sizes and dates would qualify for bulk treatment. Might be fun to put together 100 pandas or 100 libertads and slab them under a bulk or special label. Say 4 of us at 25 coins each as an experiment. Say 2017 4 sheets of 10 1g 2 sheets of 3g (5 each) and some 2017 Silver Pandas and if we got to 80 or 90 then each of us could slip in some older Pandas as well and these could get bulk pricing and special labeling.
     
  10. Silverpv

    Silverpv New Member

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    For sure I will be doing this. I think this goes to show its not exactly a marketing gimmick as the grader does not get the fee unless it is a ms70. I was shifting around my plans to go for bulk and starting to sell off some extra sets to move more towards bulk. It's doable to do a group submission.
     
  11. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    I can't imagine a grader increasing a grade because they are incentivized financially to do so. Can you?
     
  12. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    [​IMG]

    Signed Slabs for that extra value!
     

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