How To Sell Gold & Silver At SPOT PRICE!

Discussion in 'Commercial Trading (Public)' started by Bullion Now, May 8, 2019.

  1. Bullion Now

    Bullion Now Well-Known Member Commercial Member

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  2. prospect

    prospect Active Member

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    I am not sure the info about not providing your personal information to the ATO is quite correct.
    I have been selling gold for spot to another bullion dealer on Collins Street for many years.
    Once I got a call from the ATO queering a couple of my larger transactions with this buyer.
    So its seller beware, there is no such thing as anonymity when selling to dealers.
     
  3. Captain Kookaburra

    Captain Kookaburra Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    When I was running another (Well-Known) Bullion Dealership in that building I was actually surprised that the ATO never made any requests for information about specific clients.

    More recently I have been asked to confirm transactions that other dealers had included in their BAS statements to ensure that they were calculating their GST correctly.

    Information was only provided with that clients permission, which they gave as it proved that they were making the correct claims.

    If they had done those transactions “anonymously” they would have been screwed. Ironic really.

    Yes. There is no such thing as anonymity here. But I can tell you that those who are trying to be anonymous are the ones that draw attention. So if you’re trying to hide, don’t lurk in the shadows. That’s the first place they look.
     
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  4. Davros10

    Davros10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    How much was large enough to draw attention?
     
  5. prospect

    prospect Active Member

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    They weren't very large transactions Davros10, one was for $3,000 and another for $6,000.
    That is why I was surprised to receive the call from the ATO. If it had been for amounts of more than 10k
    I would not have been surprised as much.
    I think the fact that this gold buyer pays cash for purchases might mean that he comes under extra
    scrutiny by the ATO.
    On the other hand, these other gold buyers that pay by EFT or cheque can be remotely monitored,
    so there might be no need for them to send the ATO the sellers details.
     
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  6. Soprano16

    Soprano16 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Would have been due to the 6k transaction right?

    Anything under 5k can be anonymous right?
     
  7. malachii

    malachii Well-Known Member

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    Just for clarification - there is NO requirement for a bullion shop to notify the ATO of any transactions, no matter the size.

    malachii
     
  8. GoldenEye

    GoldenEye Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    What about Austrac talking to the ATO?
     
  9. Ad1

    Ad1 Active Member

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    Do you buy Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium as well? What % of spot would you pay for these? Also, i think Platinum would be exempt from GST, but Palladium and Rhodium will have GST is this correct?
     
  10. prospect

    prospect Active Member

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    That might very well be the case generally speaking malachii, but you can't tell me that the ATO does not monitor your financial transactions,
    and that you could refuse to provide the personal details of your clients to the ATO if asked to do so.
    Also, it seems that the ATO is auditing bullion dealers much more now due to the GST avoidance scam of not so long ago.
    So they are able to scrutinize all buying and selling transactions and investigate any transactions that might raise suspicions.
     
  11. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I sat in on an ATO grilling awhile back and was stunned to see Facebook messages and bank statements on the projector, seemingly pulled with ease from Clouds and institutions.

    THEY know everything and have access to more than we know. So unless you're up to Cayman Islands accounts level, just obey the rules and save yourself a lot of headaches.
     
  12. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    its just like the bank wont release any of you details
    but when the central bank, federal investigation, justice department
    just a suggestion, subject is link to some terrorist activities etc
    in a heart beat, your file drooped on the floor
    the question is how to tell if they say who they are, you never seen one before
    thank you for your cooperation
     
  13. Captain Kookaburra

    Captain Kookaburra Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm glad you brought this up.

    My summation is that you were contacted by the ATO as the ATO was under the belief that the Bullion Dealer was doing the wrong thing.

    The ATO has openly suspected that Bullion Dealers were complicit in organised cartels designed to siphon GST money from the ATO through a Carousel arrangement with a number of "Missing Traders". This has subsequently been shown to be incorrect. Indeed, during this period, a number of dealers and refiners were forced out of business by the ATO, even though they were innocent, through the use of garnishee notices, withholding of GST, and other heavy-handed techniques.

    Rather than chase the "Missing Traders" who failed to remit the GST, the ATO focused on the scrap metal dealers. The dealers were both paying and claiming back GST as they were entitled to.

    The ATO's argument with many dealers was that transactions were entirely fictitious and there was no metal at all. So I think in your case you were contacted to see if the transaction was real, and they were actually trying to get "dirt" on the dealer rather than yourself.

    The ATO mishandled both the investigation and subsequent litigation. They were desperately trying to show that these dealers were complicit in some sort of nefarious activity. The enquiries that you received simply served to show the ATO that the transactions were indeed real.

    During an "Audit", the ATO can ask for details of transactions to determine whether the business is calculating its tax correctly. They have no legal basis for then using this information to take any actions against the customer. The information is obtained only for the purposes of verification of the audited business, not those who are the other party in the transaction being verified.
     
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  14. malachii

    malachii Well-Known Member

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    Whether the ATO monitors transactions or another part of the machine does I cannot say. What I can say is that if you walk into a bullion dealer and make a purchase they will have set levels where they take ID and where they don't. I can't see how the ATO would monitor ALL transactions. For example if you buy a 1oz silver coin the chances are you won't leave any ID. How would the ATO or anyone else monitor that transaction?

    I think possibly there is a mixing up of things here. The ATO is purely looking for tax avoidance issues and as JulieW said "just obey the rules and save yourself a lot of headaches". Most (if not all) bullion dealers would not take ID for a $3000 transaction so it would almost be impossible to trace unless done with a credit card for example.

    All electronic transactions can be monitored and (while not speaking for the banks) I think they report any $10 000 or above transaction that occurs.

    At the end of the day - if the police come knocking no one is going to turn them away empty handed. Sure the bullion dealer can insist on a court order but they will go and get it and come back so all you are doing is delaying. So to quote JulieW again "just obey the rules and save yourself a lot of headaches".

    malachii (as me - not representing anyone or anything else. This is my opinion only)
     
  15. Bullion Now

    Bullion Now Well-Known Member Commercial Member

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    We do buy Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium. Platinum and Palladium we pay spot for with Palladium being subject to GST so that is included in the purchase price. Rhodium is bought back on a case by case basis as it is a fairly illiquid market and we can't buy kgs of it as we may not be able to move it for a longer period of time. Again, much like is mentioned in the video if we have a buyer in mind then sure we can take it at spot. However if we have no one currently chasing Rhodium then it might not be achievable. Rhodium is also subject to GST so the purchase price would be inclusive of the spot price offered.
     
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