How prevalent are molybedenum silver fakes?

Discussion in 'Fakes & Counterfeits' started by jerrygold, Dec 14, 2017.

  1. jerrygold

    jerrygold Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I've got some silver bars which seem nearly 100% correct from a density perspective but its incredibly hard to make them have that nice silver sound my other bars have. It seems to pass the magnet tests but not sure what my next step should be. Should I drill a small hole in it or just be happy that its density and specific gravity is pretty spot on? Anyone had any silver bars before that didn't make the nice ping sound?
     
  2. StewyD32

    StewyD32 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No need to drill and ruin your items. Take them to a bullion dealer or good pawn broker and they should be able to XRF it.
    Also local members here might be more than willing if they have a PMV or XRF machine
     
  3. jerrygold

    jerrygold Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks for the advice StewyD32. I'm still quite new to this game. It seems if I hit them at the right angle they seem to make the sound but it is definitely harder than my other bars. I can't see how anything else can pretend to be 10.50grams and not be real silver so yeah. Outside getting them XRF'd I feel pretty confident as I have some decent measurement equipment.
     
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  4. Mint Silver Coins

    Mint Silver Coins Well-Known Member

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    100% PEACE OF MIND METHOD FOR TESTING PRECIOUS METALS

    I have done an enormous amount of research into counterfeit Coins. And as a result of this I have compiled a complete list of metals and their Specific Gravity's into an excel file, all you need to do is enter the dry weight and the wet weight of any % purity and of any shaped metal (even jewelry). Anyone who wants a free copy emailed to them please contact: Toni from "Mint Silver Coins".

    The S.G. Formula is Dry Weight divided by Suspended Wet Weight which will give you the Specific Gravity of any metal ...... eg. 36.60g Dry weight divided by 3.50g Suspended Wet Weight = 10.46 (which falls with the 0.2% error rate of 10.46 - 10.50) as 999 Silver has a S.G. of 10.48 - so by that result, you can be rest assured it is genuine. If more than one of the Weight, Measurement or Specific Gravity Values are out - then that is the tell-tale indicator.

    What I personally do is start with the Manual Ping Test which is done in unison with the Frequency Ping Test on my smart phone app - if it passes that, then I do the Weight, Diameter and Width Tests. But if any of these tests fail, then I go straight to the Specific Gravity Test. A Fake Coin/Bar made from Anti-Friction Metal will be slightly out, on at least one of the tests, whether it be that it is a fraction less in width or diameter to make the metal match the weight and the S.G. - or in reverse the weight and the S.G. is slightly out to make the diameter and width measurements correct.

    All you need to use this excel file, is a set of 000.00g Digital Scales and either a finicky piece of cotton to suspend the coin/bar in water or a wire coat-hanger bent in the right way as a permanent suspension stand (picture instructions can be provided). If you don't have a set of coin scales - (I have lots available as I offer 5pc Precious Metal Testing Kits to my buyers on Ebay).

    By entering the values of the Dry and Wet Weights (of the coin/bar/odd shape being tested) into the excel file, it will instantly give you the Specific Gravity results - the Specific Gravity Test is even more accurate than those very expensive x-ray spectrometer machines.

    SPECIFIC GRAVITY'S OF SILVER

    S.G. of 50% Silver = 9.64
    S.G. of Molybdenum = 10.19
    S.G. of 80% Silver = 10.13
    S.G. of 90% Silver = 10.31
    S.G. of 92.5% Silver = 10.37
    S.G. of 99.90 Silver = 10.48
    S.G. of 99.99 Silver = 10.49
    S.G. of Anti-Friction Metal Alloy Types = 9.13 - 10.60 (which covers all grades of silver)

    Most of the Silver-Plated Counterfeit Coins these days (especially those from China) are made from Anti-Friction Metal (which is a smelted mix of Alloys). In the old days fakes were generally made from Silver-Plated Molybdenum or other magnetic metals, but the technology of Alloys has greatly advanced since then (which is no wonder when you take into account all the Chemistry Majors with Engineering Degrees that the Universities churn out these days).

    Because the various types of Anti-Friction Metal Alloys are designed to closely match the range of the S.G. for the purity of each counterfeited coin type - these "fake" coins will pass all stand-alone tests including the Neodymium Magnet Test, the Digital Scales Weight Test, the Digital Caliper Measurement Test and even the very expensive Spectrometer X-ray Test. Thus the only reliable tool we have available is the Specific Gravity Test.

    The Frequency Ping Test is commonly used for testing Silver and is generally performed via Manual Ping Test which compares the sound of one coin/bar against the sound of another coin/bar that is "known" to be real (eg. purchased direct from a Mint). Please note: with the Manual Ping Test - rather than spin the coin on a wooden surface, it is better to balance the coin on the end of your pointer finger and tap it gently with a coin/bar of the same purity. Genuine Silver should have a high-pitched sweet on-going long ring, any dull sounding short rings are cause for concern.

    There are some fairly good apps out there, I personally use the "BULLION TEST" app which you can get for Free, but the upgrade version (which is only a couple of dollars) has a greater variety of named coins in both Gold & Silver. (I have no affiliation to this app, I am just recommending it because it works) and there may be better apps out there - (if you know of a good or better Frequency Ping Test app, please add it to this thread).

    Many of these Counterfeit Coin Manufacturers have exact Replica Silver-Plated Coins/Bars available for $2 each or less for bulk buys; on a particular Chinese selling platform where the Manufacturers openly brag that their "replica" coins/bars are so exact, that they can pass any test, including the x-ray test.

    Even Pawn Shops and Coin Dealers are frequently "fooled" by the Counterfeits made from the new Silver-Plated Anti-Friction Metals (which are also a silver colour on the inside). And this is also why many of the even big name auction sites and selling platforms state "Caveat Emptor / Buyer Beware" and the onus is on the buyer to "prove" that their purchase is a counterfeit/fake.

    Also available on this Chinese Site are counterfeit replicas of limited Mintage Coins which are minted in 999/9999 Silver; which flood the market with far more in excess than the original mintage limit, which devalues the genuine item. I have also seen exact replicas of Logo'd Cases, Boxes, Frames, Illustrated Shippers, Certificates, Presentation Packaging, etc. openly available for sale. But because they are sold as replica's, tokens, commemorative coins etc. both the Chinese selling platform and manufacturers appear to avoid any repercussions, but the buyers who "knowingly" purchase these counterfeits, inevitably turn up as sellers on sites such as Ebay.

    This will never change, until selling platforms such as Ebay have the Federal Police prosecute the sellers for "knowingly" buying plated counterfeit legal tender for resale at a huge profit (this can be proven by bank account transactions made to this Chinese site and shouldn't ensnare unwitting buyers of pre-owned metals). But Ebay and others of that ilk, couldn't care less and put the onus on the unsuspecting buyers to prove that the coins/bars they received were fake - within the 30 day time frame. And even worse after the buyer has proved their case, the only way for the buyer to get their refund is by being forced to return the "fakes" to the unscrupulous seller, who will only to relist them again, once they are returned.

    I hope this information helps the community on this forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  5. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Is it just me the but it seems the listings of fake bars or jewllery on alibaba are labled replicas.

    But on ebay these bars are sold by locals as genuine.
     
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  6. Mint Silver Coins

    Mint Silver Coins Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely correct about Alibaba, and that these "Replica" Coins/Bars are on-sold on Ebay - I just don't like to utter its name (as I consider it the Voldermort of Sites)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  7. 777

    777 Member

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    Would the sigma PMV be able to detect the China fakes?
     
  8. StewyD32

    StewyD32 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Yes
     
  9. 777

    777 Member

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    Thank you
     
  10. Flyinfree

    Flyinfree Well-Known Member

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    Actually I have been bought some examples of well-known silver coins from Ali shops and they're very easy to identify if you have the genuine one to compare.

    But........if you haven't see them before......I have to say, they are minted in very good conditions and the "proof" one looks very good to me.
     

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