"Hell, I don't want to hear a lecture on VAMs..."

Discussion in 'Numismatics' started by mmissinglink, Feb 18, 2017.

  1. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Here's an interesting article just published on the issue of trying to ensure that your numismatic coins will have market value down the road....after all, just like with blobs of precious metals, if there's no one with interest in buying them when you are looking to sell, they will have little to no market value....or so the argument goes:

    http://news.coinupdate.com/real-world-ideas-for-promoting-numismatics/






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  2. The_Roll_ Man

    The_Roll_ Man Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Really, I don't see the connection between the title of your thread, nor any relevance to your comment to the story in the link you provided.
     
  3. serial

    serial Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    then save people having to click on link

    Real-world ideas for promoting numismatics

    February 17, 2017 By Kendall Bailey Leave a Comment




    The following is a reblog from TheCoinBlog.net, which is operated by regular Coin Update contributor Kendall Bailey. Our thanks to Kendall for letting us share his article here. To read it on The Coin Blog, or to check out more of Kendall's posts, click here.


    There is a lot of talk floating around about how to get people my age (34) and younger interested in numismatics. When I say "talk" what I mean is questions. There are not a lot of ideas being offered up to answer those questions. It's like everyone sees the problem but no one wants to, or is capable of, thinking beyond the boundaries of how things were done in the 1980's. It's maddening! But, I refuse to believe we are a hobby completely populated by shruggers. In the interest of doing my part, here are some ideas to promote numismatics in the real world (not online).

    Start a Free Coin Club

    Why do coin clubs have membership fees? I realize coin clubs need money if they are going to be anything beyond a place to hang out, but why not make like a church and ask for donations later? Also, fund raising isn't just for class trips, grownups can do it, too. And what's with the hierarchy and titles? Is any of that necessary? President, VP, Secretary, Treasure, etc,. Titles open the door to politics and politics have a way of ruining groups that originally had noble intentions.

    How about a coin club where membership is free, people donate money, time, and stuff as needed, it holds a quarterly coin auction where only current members can buy and sell (keeping a 5% or so fee split evenly [2.5% buyer's premium and 2.5% sellers fee]) to fund club business, holds a monthly meeting that always contains a numismatic topic for discussion, and has a Facebook page or group where members can interact. All club business is left to a simple majority vote, and that happens only when the group is divided on an issue. Leading the club meeting would rotate among the members.

    Talk at a Library

    Libraries like to host informational talks and discussions, so why not offer to give one? And pick a topic that will actually put meat in the seats. Beginners do not want to hear a lecture on VAMs. Hell, I don't want to hear a lecture on VAMs and I already find numismatics interesting. But a lecture on error coins that I could actually find in my pocket and that are worth more than face value, now you're talking! (Pun intended.)

    A talk about how coins are made might draw a decent crowd. The U.S. Mint has material available for free about their process and coins in general. Give a look. If there is a topic you know a lot about or find interesting, why not become the local expert?

    Parades

    Get some members from your coin club, or just some coin pals, to march in a parade. Throw together a banner that says well, what you want! Your situation will dictate what the banner says.

    Here is the fun part: Instead of tossing candy, hand out coins in cardboard 2x2s. You can get wheat pennies for $0.05 each. Put those in a $0.02 cardboard flips and you have handouts that cost under $0.10 each. The flips will need to have something written or stamped on them, some location for people to check out. A website makes the most sense since anyone can get there from pretty much anywhere.

    The point of this idea is to get coins into non-collector hands and get people wondering what else is out there.

    Put Old Coins into Circulation

    I know, I know, those are your coins. So what? We're doing this for the greater good!

    Release some of your older common coins back into circulation. Once that is done, tell your local newspaper and radio stations that you did it. See if there are any local Facebook groups and post about it. The goal is to raise awareness of the hobby. Plus, imagine what finding a Buffalo Nickel (even if it's dateless) would do to a kid. Set those imagination gears in motion and a handful of those children will want to learn more. Adults too.
     
  4. The_Roll_ Man

    The_Roll_ Man Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    yeah but, yeah but, yeah but ....

    If you have a 'specialist' coin/s to sell, you're not going to sell it for the price you believe it's worth to a 'newbie' who just decided to look into collecting / investing in numismatic coins.

    Especially the 'newbie' who was attracted to stocking up on 'free' 1 cent pieces in 2x2 holders !!
     
  5. Aureus

    Aureus Active Member Silver Stacker

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    extactly.

    Numismatics can take years to flip, the higher you go up the chain the smaller your market gets.
     
  6. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I think the point of the article is that in order for there to be a market in the future, there have to be people that are interested in buying those types of items. In order for there to be interest in the future, today those involved in such endeavors such as buying collectible coins may have to be a part of encouraging younger people to have interest....as they are the future.


    Not so long ago, with one of my medal purchases, I came in contact with a seller who happens to be a professor. In his classes (I believe he teaches history), he uses coins and medals as learning tools. I think this is a terrific idea and it's things like this that could very well inspire those who will be part of the future market.



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  7. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Well-Known Member

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    I think it's just a matter of time that coins go down the same road as stamps.

    There was a time before technology where lots of kids collected insects. How many insect collecteors do you know now?

    Collecting is a mentality. These days the kids are just collecting the latest pokemon go character instead of bugs and stamps.

    *Edited for typos due to trying to type on stupidly small child sized tablet screens.
     
  8. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Stamps is an interesting analogy, with less stamps in circulation and more and more digitally printed "postage paid and printed labels" collecting stamping is dying deaths by 1000 cuts.

    How far behind is coins and notes, with more and more transactions becoming digital. In fifty years time, will there be phyiscal currency?
     
  9. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Well-Known Member

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    I doubt I'll still be alive in 50 years, but if I were I'd put my house on there being no physical currency. In fact some countries would go back to swapping seashells for pigs.
     
  10. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    We run a coin club,

    We now meet in my education center which is free but before that we were being charged $10/hour room hire, and that was the cheap rate, booking the CWA hall will start at $20/hour.

    The club has to have indemnity insurance, if we arrange to meet as a club and someone has an accident, then we are liable, and that gets expensive, even the level of cover we have costs us over $500 per year.

    We also put out a newsletter which comes to a couple of dollars a month.

    We occasionally make commemorative medals which we sell to club members and other clubs to raise funds.

    We run a raffle with donated prizes to raise extra money.

    We charge $2 door charge to cover the cost of the tea and coffee, biscuits and cake etc. on the night.

    The club has a website which needs paying for and we also maintain a library of magazines and books.

    Several of our members seem to be against Facebook but I am going to be raising the possibility of having a club Facebook page as a cheaper way of promoting the club than the website.

    The newsletter would be better just emailed but many of our members are getting on in years (and at 45 I am the youngest) and prefer the printed version.

    The library is a decent size and OK for people who don't look online for info.

    The club runs several auctions each year for those members who don't want to buy or sell on eBay. The club gets 10% of the money raised and that goes towards the end of year Christmas meeting where we usually put on food for the members depending on how much money we have saved.

    Pretty much the entire club could be online and other than the monthly meeting where we all get together, there would be no loss of value. A coin club sounds like a good idea but beyond collecting Australian pre decimal or notes, no one seems to collect the same things anyway.

    We have titles, but they are the titles of the roles that get performed, not just a title for the sake of it, the treasurer actually does all the banking and buys pretty much everything the club needs as well as taking care of the auditing etc. Other then the four or five people on the committee there are very few members who volunteer their time or take on any role in the club. Most people come to be entertained, as anyone who has run a newsletter will know, asking club members to write a short article is a waste of time, so asking them to donate time or money is a short way of closing down.

    So I can understand why a 34 year old might not understand the issues of running a club, but we don't do any of this to make our CVs look good or for the power trip of deciding which night will be auction night for our 25 members, most of us do it because it has to be done and no one else is volunteering to do it.
     
  11. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I really wonder if the philatelic community actually did all that much to try to ensure that future generations would have some meaningful interest....I doubt that the community did their best.

    If the coin collecting community doesn't come up with creative ways to inspire younger folks to have interest in coins, then coins will likely also go the way of postage stamps. I think it's incumbent upon everyone (including dealers, the mints, and collectors themselves) who wants coins to be valued in the future, to figure out ways to perk the interest of younger people. I do see some collectors stepping up to the plate by putting up fairly creative videos on coins, but it will take more than this to inspire our youth.




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  12. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I noticed that line in your signature, Jislizard.....do you have your fill or is it a boycott of sorts?





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  13. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I have 23 kg of dirty pre decimal coinage from Australia, I love the stuff but most of it is 50% and it takes up a lot of space!

    I am putting together treasure chests with silver coins and too many Australian coins in the mix doesn't show much variety.

    I will have a larger chest just for the Australian bulk decimals but that will come when I have found a quick way to clean them all, even cloudy ammonia and bi-carb takes a while and I get aching shoulders after processing around 20-30 coins in an evening.

    I would not say "No." to Australian pre dec at the right price, but I am not actively seeking any at the moment. I could probably say the same to Canadian and American Junk coins as I have quite a few of those too.

    I am boycotting Perth Mint products until they fix up the milk spots though.
     
  14. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    We still have a local stamp club, small though.

    I think that high value stamps are still worth money and there are still some serious collectors with serious money around.

    But in the 80s for sure, the Post Offices around the world pumped out commemorative after commemorative series and it was very difficult to keep up or even care about all the new releases. You also had countries like Bhutan pumping out Disney stamps, much in the same way you have Niue and Kiribati pumping out collector coins. I remember at one point that each new release came with First Day Covers, Collector Postcards and several different covers etc.

    It felt like a money grab and the quality wasn't there.

    If younger folks don't send letters or more importantly, don't experience the thrill of getting a letter from a far away land, then they have no real connection with stamps and no incentive to start. My collection was handed down to me by my father and I have added stamps from letters that have been sent to me, but I stopped buying first day covers a long time ago and haven't bought any stamps for years.

    You can't flog a dead horse.

    Why should anyone want to spend $$$ on a piece of paper with a picture on it? There are many more things to do with that money that are far more entertaining.

    Most of my albums could be thrown straight in the bin. The stamps are common, used, multiple examples, not in top condition and not in complete sets. It is not surprising that they are not worth anything to a dealer and therefore not worth anything as an investment. It will take me years to go through them all to pick the best examples and look for all the colour variations and $$$ to buy decent storage and fill the gaps. I have boxes of stamps still on the envelopes and other boxes full of first day covers (with variants) that I need to sort through, not looking forward to any of that, seems more like work than a hobby.
     
  15. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    ^ Yes, Jislizard, I remember the time frame when I first started seeing those pretty picture stamps by the boat load (well, okay by the pouch load) from Bhutan (and whatnot other such countries) and I'd wondered for years how it was that small countries like those could produce so many postage stamps that end up being offered for sale by certain commercial U.S. stamp dealers. I don't think it was very much the volume of stamps in the market at that time that caused a waning interest in stamp collecting but rather the fact that as the dawn of the internet and e-mailing made its way into household after household, so did the lack of need for buying postage stamps. I think you have been asserting this.


    I have a stamp collection and I have remnants of a fairly large comic book and comic/fantasy art (like limited edition S&N Frazetta portfolios and lithos) collection. The main reason I stopped buying comic book and comic/fantasy artwork and sold them over the past several years is because they are very susceptible to moisture and water damage as well as insects, not to mention they can get bent easily in a number of ways. Also, the take up a lot of room. The average bullion coins on the other hand are much more compact and can be more easily protected from damage. Storage issues tend to present more headaches with paper products than with metals.


    So do you think it's inevitable that coin collecting will become like stamp collecting? Or do you think that there's more resilience in numismatics because of built in differences between paper and metal goods for specific other reasons? What reasons? What do you think collectors, dealers, and or mints can do to hasten the assumed downward trajectory of numismatics? Do you think that because certain coins are made from precious metals and that because precious metals are traded in commodities and paper markets that numismatics has a (significant) leg up on philatelics? After all, other than the collector premium with stamps, there really is little other value to most philatelic items unlike as with coins made from PM's, there's always the metal value that can impact the short term value of those coins (up or down).



    The one upside to any weakened or suppressed market is that there are bargains to be had.



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  16. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it. Stamps are wonderful, I'm sure. Those little pieces of paper, with some beautiful ink on them. But gold and silver is God's money, and has been for at least 5000 years. There is something inherently beautiful about those metals. Not to mention all the wonderful things you can do with them (industry, health, technology, etc...). I'm sorry, not seeing coins going the way of stamps, EVER. I know, quite a prediction to make. But that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. So, buy, buy, buy, buy. Numismatics are a tough one. I agree Aureus. The more expensive and rare, the smaller the crowd, and the harder it is to sell.
     
  17. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I would estimate that it is only a small proportion of coin collectors who collect gold and silver coins.

    Sure you have the really keen ones who collect gold sovereigns, of our coin club of 45 members I only know of two who were putting together sovereign collections, and even then, only one of each coin. Many of them have a single example of a sovereign or gold coin and the dealers have a few but my father-in-law probably has more sovereigns than most of the members in the coin club (He does use them as a store of wealth, he used to get paid in them when the Greek drachma was in free fall)

    Many of the members have a collection of silver predecimal coins of course.

    But not many of the other members collect the silvers and gold offerings. I know a couple who used to collect everything the Perth Mint churned out, but the rest have no interest in 'collector rubbish'. For most of the old time collectors, if it doesn't get spent then it isn't a coin.

    Of those that are actively collecting, they generally pick a series, like the dollar coins, and collect them.

    Coin collectors only buy the coins because they are collecting that series, not many seem to be stacking silver or gold as a store of wealth. Some might buy a Kookaburra for the series but they won't buy a roll of them.

    I know several collectors who are hanging out for the Queen to step down so they can stop buying the $1 coins and stop collecting all the decimals hat the RAM is also churning out. They are sick of the number of Non-Circulating Legal Tender that they feel obliged to buy just to keep their collection complete. Once they can say they have the complete collection of QE2 $1 coins they can quit!

    Funnily enough the members of the club are happy to buy all the cheap 100mils rubbish from eBay, I think it is because many of them used to collect tokens and medals and now those branches of the hobby have pretty much died a death as well.

    I usually bring in some Silver from Perth Mint each year or examples of interesting coins like the Maples with Radiating fields and laser security marks etc. and although people are interested in the coins no one really gets excited about getting hold of any. Bring in copper rounds though and you can sell them with no problems.

    The best seller in our club was the 50th Anniversary of Decimals, I bought in a load of those and sold them at cost price and everyone was buying a couple of each coin to build sets.

    I think that once circulating coins are replaced by electronic transactions most of the coin collecting community will move on. It won't affect the people who collect medieval hammered coins but it will hit the people who like to get a set of coins from around the world or the people who like to casually set aside a mint set for each year or collect from circulation.

    It will also cut back on new people joining the hobby. I started like many other people did, I went on holiday and discovered that something as fundamental as the air I breath was completely different outside of my home. It never occurred to me that the Spanish wouldn't accept my pocket money, or that they had their own type of money, spent most of the holidays trying to buy things in shops so I could go through the change and get one of every coin. If there is one world currency (Like the Euro) or everything is electronic then there is no longer that wonderment of discovery.

    Maybe those people who used to collect circulating coins will transition to gold and silver non-circulating legal tender to get their fix, but when the cost of a single silver coin is more than a complete Mint Set then they will either have to increase their hobby budget or cut back on what they buy.

    I won't miss coin collecting, I haven't sunk too much money into it, everything has either been collected from circulation or has intrinsic value, I blew a bit on Mint Sets which was not money well spent but I have never overspent trying to get a single coin.
     
  18. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I think there are several levels of collectors.

    Casual collectors will probably drop off and few new collectors will join the hobby.

    Nostalgia collectors may only want a few examples, I used to live in Germany and recently bought a 5 Deutchmark Note, which were rare as they circulated side by side with a 5 DM coin. I have a few banknotes but now I have all the coins. At most I might buy a mint set from Germany but that would be about it. Maybe a set of coins from the year I was born.

    At the top end of the hobby where people like to spend $$$ on a single coin then I can see it going on forever, people with a lot of money can indulge themselves and go to auctions and buy up collections and that sort of thing.

    People who are interested in collecting things can find other things to collect, I recently came across digital collector cards, apparently even trade cards aren't safe. One of my favourite trading card games now has an online version with online cards to collect.

    No one needs to collect coins, it is only done because it gives some form of enjoyment. Some people collect coins because it is now a habit, they have been doing it so long that it is just a part of their lives. Some people are driven to collect complete sets, these people eventually get fatigued once the Mints start producing more and more product to keep going.

    I think there are many parallels between coin, stamp and phonecard collecting.

    They all came about because of a need, the need to buy stuff, send letters and make phonecalls on the go.

    Technology has now made all of these things easier and more convenient, electronic banking, email and mobile phones.

    All these 'hobbies' started out as 100% service businesses until they discovered that there was a group of people who would pay money without using the service.

    So they started making commemorative stamps, commemorative coins and collectible phonecards.

    The majority of people just using the service didn't notice, the minority of collectors were happy that there was a bit of variety and snapped up these new offerings and a small group of users thought it was pretty cool and started collecting themselves.

    Fast forward and the number of service users is dropping because of alternatives but there is still a base of collectors. Now the collector money has to replace the user money.

    All three industries did the same thing, ramped up the number of collectible issues and put up the prices on the collectibles.

    The more users left the more the collectors had to replace the income, so the more often, the more varied and the more expensive the collecting side became.

    So you end up with a few people paying extortionate amounts of money to prop up an industry on its last legs. They eventually bore of the hobby, move on to something with a larger active base or become more selective in what they can afford to purchase, they difficulty in trying to achieve a 100% collection means many will quit.

    Then the realisation hits that there are no new comers to the hobby, and why would there be? The youth don't bother paying money to use an antiquated system (177 years old) that takes three days to deliver a message with a slight chance that it will never get there, when they can send a message from their phone and get immediate delivery with the knowledge that it got there.

    Can you even buy phonecards anymore and if so, who is buying them? Most of the phonecard clubs I know of have switched to collecting shop gift cards.

    And coins, why carry around heavy metals that don't actually buy you anything unless you have a pocket full of them when you can pay from your phone or use a credit card?

    There is no incentive for young people to adopt an old fashioned technology when the new technology is better for most of the time, sure they will be inconvenienced when the power goes out at the supermarket or their mobile battery dies but most of the time when it works, it works much, much better than the old tech.

    Each industry tried the same thing, milk the collectors.

    Phonecard collecting folded several years ago, no new phonecards and no commemorative issues and no machines that can accept them.

    Stamp collecting is on life support, some people still send letters, sometimes stamps are used even though it is better to just print them on a sticky label when you need them, but post offices are closing or transitioning into other areas like passports or selling junk. Money can still be made selling stamps to collectors but not in the way you could back in the 80s.

    Coins are still going through the phase of milking the collector, $10 for a $1 coin in a 50 cent cardboard holder, and unlimited series being churned out, how many non-circulating $1 coins are being released each year? How many time are coins going to be sold in different packaging and why can I buy current year lunar offerings with dragons on them [​IMG]
    is that a Chinese thing or did the mints just catch on that people will spend more for a dragon than they will for a chicken. (Genuine question)

    So at the moment it is pretty good for coin collectors, there are still plenty of people in the hobby, maybe not as many as there used to be but still enough people to keep a forum going. There are still some new people joining the hobby as coins are still used in everyday life. There are so many offerings, we can buy several different series from each mint, there are ongoing series to make collections more themed there are pop up themes like Holden Cars through the ages, there are military and Disney and Star Wars and Star Trek and Lord of the Rings, and spherical coins, or exploded cubes or guitar shaped or map of Australia shaped and domed and lenticular, holographic with inserts of precious stones or glass and you can get them boxed or in a card and proof versions and high relief versions, we can buy them from Somalia and Canada and the UK and Several option in Australia and the USA... we never had so much choice.

    But most of the stuff loses its value the second you buy it, and if you miss a coin series, no panic, there will be another one along soon, missed out on the 2000 $1 Victoria Cross coin, too expensive to buy one now? never mind, you can get the 2014 VC coin or the 2016 VC one and I am sure that there wall be many more now that the mint knows how popular the VC is.

    So that leaves us with the saving grace of the Intrinsic Value!

    All the other industries have been replaced but nothing will replace saving money...

    Except that saving money is out of fashion too, banks don't encourage saving and are even threatening negative interest or giving 'investors' haircuts when they stuff up.

    The youth of today are massively in debt if you believe the news. They all live off cheap credit via credit cards, they have crippling student debt, they are unlikely to find jobs, they will never afford a house so they spend all their money on entertaining and going on holiday and drinking lattes with smashed avocado on toast (which are lovely and I have no issue with).

    So even saving money is out of fashion and with a socialist government and generous government handouts for housing and food and spending money, child care and even solar panels, why would you be interested in saving?

    Paying down debt is a much better strategy than stacking, buying an investment property is a much better strategy than stacking.

    The only place that silver and gold shines :) is during a financial crisis or as some form of insurance again something really bad happening. In which case stacking beans is a better strategy. But, we have seen a global financial crisis with the US$ going so far into debt they stopped counting it and the idea of a debt ceiling because increasingly absurd. If Gold and silver weren't any use then, when will they be, how bad does it have to get for stacking to make sense?

    If you want to put gold and silver aside for financial reasons then it makes sense to buy it at the cheapest you can get it, which means bars and not coins, which is still no help to the coin collecting hobby.

    These are just my opinions, I have watched several other hobbies I have enjoyed go down the same path, I have watched companies get greedy and treat their best customers as brainless cash cows, I have seen attempts to prop up a failing system rather than embracing new technology and I have seen the eventual dwindling of interest in current enthusiasts and I have been involved in many conversations about how to engage the youth in the hobby.

    You can fight it as best you can or you can make preparations to scale down your collecting, sell off your excess, and come up with an exit strategy that doesn't leave you dragging albums down to the local market trying to see what the local coin dealer will give you for them or holding on to them in the hopes that your children will somehow take an interest and not just dump them the second you are in the grave.
     
  19. Annie

    Annie New Member

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