Any old timers around want to weigh in on what the 90s Kook privy fiasco did to Perth Mint's reputation? I believe there are similarities between that and this current situation. Projack?
I might open a can of worms here but can they re-mint more? Is the wording on their commitmeet not to re-mint more so flimsy that they can break it? I dont know. Nick
I've never seen a launch event that has divided this community so much and unless you have the selective memory of a goldfish, you'll full well note there were many dissenting voices at the time. In fact, I barely said anything at all during the launch... but I know quite a lot of people who felt they got burned in buying $100+ per oz Lunar dragons after the mania died down. People can buy whatever the hell they please at the end of the day as long as they understand and appreciate the full measure (and associated risks) of what they're getting into and are not goaded and railroaded into parting with their hard earned on false pretences. There in lies the rub though and getting to your specific point, there's a lot of misguided people who went mad for $100+ silver thinking they were going to make a fortune on it and are sitting on what currently, 50% losses? A shame the only voices of reason who wanted to offer up a warning were the ones shouted down the most, sort of like what your comment above implies. 'Don't listen to the hypocrite folks' Uhuh... kk.
If you take the Perth mint at their word it would appear that the bullion coins are safe from re minting as it clearly states that minting of ??? lunar coin will cease at the years end and the final mintage declared. but they also seem to have a knack for releasing more coins than the stated mintage by producing them in different packaging and claiming it is somehow a different coin say specimen vs bullion so I guess we can only hope they do not try this stunt with the bullion coins. For one recent example on the COA of the 1/2 oz proof snake it clearly says "no more than 8000 of these coins will be released by the Perth mint" but then on the 3 coin proof set there is obviously another 1500 of these coins released , so I guess it depends on the definition of the wording and what they could say is "well what we meant to say is no more than 8000 will be released in this packaging" it really does not give me much faith in their integrity .
This is nothing against you Auspm, but you would have to admit it was a pretty low blow to remint another 200,000 of the 1 0z dragon coins (2/3 of the entire mintage) and simply put a small privy mark claiming it is a different coin. Is it legal ? maybe, but is it unethical if you want to be taken seriously? Absolutely
From a numismatists perspective, which is what matters when it comes to determining collector value in the aftermarket, they ARE entirely different coins - a set builder would not accept a privy coin in place of a non-privy coin. Speaking bluntly, anyone who doesn't get this distinction isn't a coin collector, and is merely a numismatics speculator in a market they don't understand - numismatics. If you bought them on a bullion basis as a silver investment - they're still silver, they're not debased, and there is likely to be lower numismatic premium on them over a non-privy coin because they are "off set" - you could only build a short set if the mint continues to release privies in the lunar II set. I have absolutely no problem with privy coins except for the lack of imagination in recycling a design. Now the two often get mentioned in tandem, so let me make it clear that privy coins struck with a recycled design but a totally new die incorporating a new design element are (in my opinion) a totally different kettle of fish to the reminting of coins from years past with the same dies, like Kookaburras. Which funnily enough (with my distributor hat on) we can barely keep up with demand supplying to silver buyers at bullion prices.
That's what I'm talking about. The understanding of the concept of third party counter risk is key to protecting your wealth. I'm still a strong advocate of the Perth Mint and buy their bullion based products. The 'premium' on their minted product is intrinsic with what I buy, so I consider the extra cost essentially risk free. But if you're talking about numis, fiat currency, property or anything else similar that's associated with a third party counter risk, you'll have to remember that there's no guarantee - no matter who makes the claim. I think a lot of people make investment decisions based on assumptions of third party counter risk and feel cheated because of the misplaced trust they put into the third party to hold up their end of the bargain. I'd just say treat this as a learning experience for yourself and others and make your future purchases accordingly.
Thanks GP some very good points here. Yes they are 2 different coins . I am glad the distributers are doing well with the bullion, they are very nice coins. I dont know why they do not just get rid of the mintage thing all together in the future.
^^^ Nice post Bullion Baron. If I wanted to buy a limited edition collectors superman model in a glass case, that's exactly what I'd buy - The original. What about if that superman model came in a 1/2 size, 2 x size, 5 x size, 10 x size or 32.15 x size? Both coins sell well, if the holders of the original 1 oz silver Dragon (300,000 mintage) want to sell their coins cheap when they have a unique and very collectable coin well that's the nature of the beast. imo, the dragon privy mintage (200,000) is the first lunar ever to have a privy mark; if Perth decide not to strike the 2013 privy snake (Already approved) then perhaps the dragon privy will be very sort after. Cheers H
I don't often agree with Baron, but that was spot-on... Spot on Bevan! http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Wow, Baron, I wasn't aware of this. Now I can understand why some people are so upset about this privy release. This is really extremely low.
Youd think that the fact the PM has compromised the integrity of the s2 coins that it would in turn increase the value of the s1 coins since there are alot less of those ones with no chance of them being tampered with. I guess it just goes to show how angry people are about the whole shebang.
Maybe Perth should stick to what they advertise! If Perth launch their Precious Metals Program, perhaps the launch should include all of the coins they intend to mint. What I mean is, if they are going to release a privy coin, that coin should be included in the initial lauch. I think most people purchased bullion coins knowing that the only coins to be released, were infact what's on this video or indeed Perth's, online bullion Brochure! The privy coin was an after-thought as you can see by the dates the Dragon privy was tabled to the Senate. Remember the 1oz silver Dragon was released on 01 September 2011; the Chinese got their coloured dragon coins a long tome before the release in Australia, perhaps as early as June - July 2011 with their launch in August 2011 Currency (Perth Mint) Determination 2011 (No. 3) - F2011L02779 Made 09 Dec 2011 Registered 21 Dec 2011 Tabled HR 07 Feb 2012 Tabled Senate 07 Feb 2012 See item 53 of this link http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L02779/Explanatory Statement/Text Here's the video of what Perth said they would release [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qYL2znX8JY[/youtube]
I remember seeing that for the kilocoins at my local dealers. They asked over 1000 euro for a Dragon 2012 while other kilocoins were 900 euro. Just a month later, the price dropped to the same level as the other kilocoins.
I personally feel things will recover. The plethora of dragon coins put a drag on the market in general. Then the whole mintage issue popped up and really piled on. It will take a bit of time but people will gravitate back to them for the same reasons they did in the first place.
nar not me, actions speak louder than words, expect them to keep pumping it out and buy accordingly is my new motto.
Its worse than that.. far far worse... They have.. destroyed the market for One Ounce Bullion ... and especially One Ounce Bullion with Premiums.. (even though we know thats an anomoly). One Ounce Coins have NEVER been so unpopular locally.. NO JOKE.. 10 ounce bars are what everyone is chasing.. People realise that no one can F*CK with them, people have seen the error of there ways buying coins with Premiums, PM has opened our eyes to this shortcoming and reminded us we should be buying 999 silver with as little premium as possible. RIP COINS, long live bars.. Thanks PM for sorting out the industry and bringing people to basic bars and snobbing the expensive One Ounce Bullion which is very flavour of the month and based on PM mintage policies. 1for1
I bought bars as they seemed less of a hassle to purchase. Looks like the easy path paid off for once
Excellent point, the amount of hassle and attachment you get with the one ounce coins is really worth factoring in.. how much do you value your time if your planning on selling them one at a time, im definitley coming around to low-maintainance Silver with minimal down-side risks, obviosuly this means ill stop speculating on PM product increasing in the future and in turn stop OVER-PAYING for bullion as thats what it is. As for Modern PM numismatics.. i was never that damaged to lose money on those, just the high premium bullion which im already in the red with due to recent policy so at least i can be thankful i wasnt dropping $109 per coin. What Bars were you buying Staz? Smarty Pants with the foresight! 1for1
