Fears for Detroit's treasures as bankruptcy looms

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by sammysilver, Dec 21, 2013.

  1. sammysilver

    sammysilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    http://www.smh.com.au/world/fears-for-detroits-treasures-as-bankruptcy-looms-20131221-2zrtn.html

    This week Detroit finally cleared the last legal hurdle preventing it from entering bankruptcy, with a court authorising an application filed in July when the city admitted it had no chance of repaying its 100,000 creditors the $US18 billion ($20 billion) it owes them.

    This, on top of haircuts in Cyprus, is a taste of the future. I do a lot of things outside of SS, but believe, on the whole, our ilk are the only ones with any idea as to what is going on around us.
     
  2. trew

    trew Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Don't worry I'm sure the banksters will take good care of the treasures.
     
  3. errol43

    errol43 New Member Silver Stacker

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    Maybe a rescue package on the way.

    Hasn't GMH decided to build 5 new production plants in the USA with one of them in Detroit.

    Probably won't make that much difference anyhow.

    Regards Errol 43
     
  4. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    To quote a famous movie - 'you cut them up with a machine gun then give them a bandaid'.

    Better apply an urban reclamation and allow the majority to revert to small farms.
     
  5. sammysilver

    sammysilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  6. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That is good, they should sell the lot.

    On another note, another piece of good news from Detroit.

    Who needs government?
     
  7. SilverSaviour

    SilverSaviour New Member

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    Indeed.

    That's a great example of how society doesn't immediately turn into chaos once government cant pay for basic services.

    Although a lot of us here see the benefits of the free market and less (or none) government interference, some believe we need government for parks, street lights, security, street cleaning and rubbish collection.

    Isn't it amazing that private organizations and people just fill in the gap, and society doesn't explode into murdering raping chaos !!
     
  8. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Um, well, actually it does.

    Detroit is the second most dangerous city in the U.S. (after Flint, Michigan, which is about an hours drive north west of Detroit).

    http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/detroit/crime/#data

    Detroit is, relatively speaking, a murdering, raping chaos.
     
  9. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I think (from memory) police response time of average is around 45 mins to an hour for serious incidents so if you shoot someone you do not have to run away you can walk. No overtime so crimes such as murder get very minimal investigation and are closed very quickly. There are certain suburbs where people no longer call the police for crimes such burglary, thefts, bushings, muggings because it can take a day or more (frequently they do nothin and do not even show up) for police to turn up and then they don't do anything therefore the crime rate is actually higher in a lot of areas than statistics suggest.

    Also read about the fire brigade, they do not even respond to some house fires if there is no chance of damage to adjoining properties they just let them burn. Fire houses have been sold off and the fire brigades in some areas work out of abandoned warehouses.

    That said I am sure they will be fine.

    Edit: when I said I am sure it will be fine that was sarcasm the place is the rape, murder, assault land of hell. I agree with Big D.
     
  10. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    And it was all "Garden of Eden" of course before the government went broke. ;)
     
  11. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Not saying it was, but someone changing a few lightbulbs and hiring rent-a-cops isn't a substitute for a functioning government.

    If people think it's the beginning of a great post-government Randian paradise, they can to move there and experience how wonderful it is for themselves.The city is giving houses away for free on the condition that you live there and keep them well maintained.
     
  12. SilverSaviour

    SilverSaviour New Member

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    No one is saying that, and I didn't imply that.

    The reason the city went broke is because of the government. They spent more than they earned, the took on debt couldn't pay it back and went down the tube.
    The reason so many people are poor is because of welfare, minimum wages, taxes, and shitty schools (and much more)
    shiney made a good point, and you brushed it aside as nothing to try and make your post look better.

    I also made a good point that DESPITE all the horrible things happening in Detroit, the people are making it better, DESPITE the government. Despite the taxes they still have to pay they are forking out even more money to pay for the stuff their taxes should already be paying for.

    Actually these are fundamental services the "functioning government" provides. So if someone else is providing them then yes, that is on the way as a substitute for government.

    Unless of course you want to see the private investors paying for overseas mass murder of innocent people before you consider them a substitute for government ?

    Did you just make a strawman ?
     
  13. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    They are? You have a link?
     
  14. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Go to Google, type "detroit free" and auto-complete will suggested "detroit free houses" as the most relevant search term.

    Click through until you find the best free/what-ever-you-have-in-your-wallet-right-now purchase program for your circumstances.

    Better yet, go over and have a look for yourself. They have "Ruins of Detroit" tours on schedule or by appointment. You may be required to sign a waiver.
     
  15. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Is there any society that has not fallen into chaos with no Govt (or less to the point where there is nearly none)? Private organisations and people just fill the gaps?

    That sounds like Somalia to me, little govt that only controls part of the country and has a very loose grip. Private organisations fill the gaps - sounds like what the warlords did by forming militias. Free enterprise? They then worked out with minimal resources you can hijack aid shipments and sell it and then they worked out hijacking ships and you get millions in ransom for each ship. As with any good business one person worked his way to the top of the pile and got a cut of from each hijacking and financed anyone who wanted to get into the business which provided him with more revenue. He then paid "tax" to the militias.

    Anytime you have a lack of Govt a power vacuum will form, what happens with a vacuum? It is filled..... Who fills it? There are some very bad people in this world and some very bad smart people also.

    Security is one of the best things about govt, without govt you have no security. No security provides opportunities for people to do stuff they probably should not be doing.

    Before it is raised yes there are is bad Govt I know that is so obvious I should not have to mention it but I will. Yes there are things govt should do better, yes there could be more effective govt, yes it could be more efficient.

    Edit spelling, auto fill annoys the crap out of me.
     
  16. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    People light fires and wait for the fire brigade to arrive and then shoot at the fire fighters for entertainment, something to do while having a few drinks. The fire brigade will not attend a fire until the police are in location in some areas - firefighters have been shot and killed.

    Signing a waiver before you do one of those tours is not a joke they are serious, some of the locals take exception to people driving through there hoods and treating them like animals in a zoo.

    When you go over there people tell you do not go in certain area's either driving or walking and seriously if you go in there is a very high probability something will happen to you.
     
  17. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You know that you guys are basically attacking the current contracted employees for failing to do their job. The monopoly and near effective monopoly of the govt firefighters and policeman has been in place for generations. Take them away essentially over night and new institutions need to be built. "Rent-a-cops" for a subset of the population are the most readily available but you actually need a signal of some sort that it is worth spending your money in addition to the govt services. Anyone who already had their own private security had the signal a long time ago tgat they could not rely on the govt service to the extent they wanted and hence paid for extra. I doubt there was much of a signal regarding the fire department.

    Once the signals are in place (ie crime goes up) and people realise that they can no longer rely on the govt to perform these services then people will begin measures to address the issues as and when they can. The same happens with any deterioration in service quality. Vodaphone survived for years for example.

    The other aspect that you guys no doubt know, is the simple logistics of building an alternative to the government services. Undertaking serious law enforcement or firefighting requires skills and training. I certainly could not step into these roles overnight and expect to do anywhere near as good a job and I daresay not many people could. So not only does their have to be systems to organise and pay the alternative institutions there also needs to be effective people in the roles (and vice versa). Lower cost ways of policing etc will naturally eventuate first (perhaps neighbourhood by neighbourhood vigilantism or groups of shop owners banding together, who knows). Finally, people have ready alternatives to any of this which is simply to leave, which creates other difficulties in setting up city wide alternatives. As SS said, that alternatives are being actively sought and enacted privately by peaceful citizens is the key message. How long it takes for the poison of the past to wash out of Detroit's veins and having the ability for these new institutions to flourish is anyone's guess. If Detroit manages to remain free from the old institutions reasserting their past dominance then it is highly likely that they could be exporting their solutions to other bankrupt or near bankrupt regions.

    BTW @newtosilver - I take back my thanks to the post that you edited after I had thanked. Cheeky. ;)
     
  18. Rinchin

    Rinchin New Member

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    This thread makes me wish we (NZ) would go bankrupt.

    I sure wouldn't complain about someone fixing our lights, cleaning up our rubbish and providing security to cover the crime our police are simply not interested in. Last time we were broken into it took 8 days for a police response. And I have chased burglars going through peoples cars 2x in the past month....... did try to call the police but they weren't interested. No revenue in policing this kind of offending.

    Having lived in Adelaide I can see how people would fear the rape and murder in a post general motors town but hey you had to fear that shit before they pack up shop and take their jobs to china.
     
  19. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It's like traffic lights and roads, just because government provides it at the moment or is in charge of it doesn't make it the best provider.

    I've got nothing to do with them, but click on the link under my avatar:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Ooh. I forgot to mention that because the old Government provided services had no price signals and near zero accountability in providing things that the Detroit citizens actually wanted, it would also be natural for many old functions to "decay" or disappear altogether. Once people actually have the means to vote for the quantity and quality of road, lighting, policing, library, public art, multi-titted sky-whale balloons, etc the nature and structure of Detroit will change considerably.
     

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