eBay Ansell - Real, fake or con?

Discussion in 'Sovereigns' started by hyphenated, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    FNQ
    Time to ask the question of the expert graders, I think.

    There is an eBay auction in progress with what purports to be an 1859 Ansell British Sovereign. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/-/261755649285 - it's broken the $1,000 mark.

    The Aussies stuffed up with a gold shipment with impurities which originally made it too hard and brittle for coinage. A young metallurgist named Ansell came up with a fix, and coins were minted with the metal, distinguished by an extra line in the headband. http://www.cruzis-coins.com/sovs/sov2.html

    Ansell Sovereigns are very rare, and it seems pretty likely that someone somewhere has tried to fake them over the last 150 years. Looking at the (fairly poor) photos I see a few worrying anomalies, so I would welcome comment from the experts.

    :/
     
  2. sovereignsteve

    sovereignsteve New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Not seen any of these in the flesh but it doesn't look right to me.
     
  3. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    FNQ
    Aksherly it is genuine. :D

    Here are some better photos:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Interesting fake. They managed to get double ribbon but forgot that the 5 in the date does NOT have the vertical stem. It should look similar to a 3. I'm sorry if you bid on it. There are only 15-20 examples of genuine Ansells in the whole world and an MS 64 is the highest known grade.
     
  5. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    FNQ
    I got the coin appraised and XRFed, and the conclusion was that it was the real deal, but if there is a die discrepancy it will certainly undermine that. If it is a fake it has been through the wars :) I was considering putting it into PCGS, but a little more detailed research is a good idea.

    The other factor I came up with in searches but have yet to understand and check is:

    "On the reverse, the final proof that this is an Ansell sovereign is the blundered "F" in DEF at the end of the legend, where a second full letter sets above the in-line "F", touching the rim beading. As well, the "D" in this word is placed over a partly visible, slanted "D" beneath it."


    Now all I have to do is understand what it means :)

    I have Marsh, and the type 42A plate shows a stemless 5 as you say.

    However the Baldwin sovereign auctions are confusing:

    The Finest Known "Ansell" Variety Sovereign Dated 1859

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    426v Victoria, Sovereign, 1859, "Ansell" second larger young head left, with extra line depicted on lower fillet
    of hair, indicating struck from Australian "brittle" gold, ww incuse on truncation without stops, date
    below, complete 5, small bulb type 9, die flaw from neck to field to left of date, another long flaw from
    top rim over head vertical to cheek, unbarred last A in legend, rev crowned quartered shield of arms
    within laurel wreath, emblems below, 7.99g (Marsh 42A R4; MCE 520; S 3852E). Good extremely fine and
    the finest Ansell Sovereign known to the Cataloguer.


    http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/...UCTION 76 - BENTLEY (Part 2) - Section 01.pdf Lot 426

    The photo is rather small, but it certainly looks like a stemmed 5. There is a stemless 5 in the previous lot, a 1859 Sov lot 425, described as incomplete 5, which is an interesting and non-intuitive comparison.
     
  6. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm happy it checks out. I am no expert my only 'expertise' is based on the graded Ansells I purchased which have the similar characteristics. Also read about the unusual 5 in the date online. I think what they mean about the F in DEF is that it is a bit 'weak' on the top horizontal part of the F. It is thinner and a bit wavy on top. Will try and post some pictures for you if you think it will help. NGC grading will definitely be a BIG plus.

    But please be cautious as there are many fakes on eBay specially of the Rare and desirable British coins like the 1847 Gothic Crown, Ansells and the like. Many of them are made of precious metals as well to fool the amateur collector.

    Hope your coin checks out OK.
     
  7. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
  8. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    FNQ
    Well, I'll dig it out from the UK (which might take a good long while) then submit. Frankly, looking at the Baldwins catalogues is mind-blowing in terms of the variations for Sovereigns.
     
  9. 1934 Wreath Crown

    1934 Wreath Crown New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hyphenated I do think your coin is good. I too noticed different date types on the Ansells being sold. the pictures are not very clear but they definitely seemed to have some with a complete 5. But best if you get it graded as there aren't too many of them that survived.

    I recently purchased an 1859 Small Date AU58. Would really appreciate if anyone can shed some light on its rarity and value please. Cheers.
     
  10. hyphenated

    hyphenated Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    FNQ
    ...and, as a footnote...

    I got the PCGS Slab back this morning - I put it through Eric at Drake Sterling.

    Bad news: polished so not gradable.
    Good news: PCGS Genuine, Polished - XF Details, S-3852E Ansell

    [phew]
     

Share This Page