Each industry has its rules, such rules may be formulated by a prominent and powerful person or group or/and spontaneously natural market. The rules can be rational and irrational. Reasonable rules make a vitality and vibrant of the industry and prosperous in long-term. This is especially true and crucial for the investor point of view. Reasonable rules will be more equitable and attract more participation to persistent its collection of investment and eventually strengthen the industry and growth. China medal rules got difference views. Someone say "it is mess, every developers can develop their own medal, the price is unstable and so on." This is true BUT NOT fully true. This happen to coin market and other investment products. What happen to the china coin electronic platform recently? What happen to some hot western coin like superman mints by Canada mints? But I believe that this phenomenon should be viewed from the rule of the medal analysis and scrutiny. There are two aspects of everything good or bad, advantages or disadvantages, gain or loss and via versa. It is because of the china medal can be developed by "anyone" who invest and link with the mints which create the freedom and competition in the market. Therefore, competition actually is definitely a good thing to make things better in free market. This is the result of three decades of reforming and opening up of china economy. Just a short three decades of history of china medal which can compete intensively with fiat money and western coin/medal market. How amazing of the high relief effect, hand crave die medal, attractive theme of the medal and so on. This competition enable collectors to gain real benefits! In fact, the china medallion development process is not as easy as by saying you can develop a medal as long as you have money and relationship with the mints. It is much more complex than said. You need to select from the theme, design, sculpture, production and processing, and so on. Therefore, it is impossible for a developer personally operate the complex processes and all aspects. Any part of the processes and aspects will affect the good or bad of the medal develop. A good medal existence highly depending on a multi-cooperation and participation of the "systems engineering" is not an exaggeration. Once the medal developed and issued, it still need widely recognized by the majority of collectors. Therefore, a good medal do not means good return. It is not risk-free business whoever have money to jump into the wagon and invest. Therefore, the developer shall be reward for producing a widely accepted medal. From collector viewpoint, medal collection is excited and fun due to the low mintage, high value in art appreciation, large varieties and larger choice of selection as compare to fiat money which full of restrictions which cover by government legislation. It is impossible for collector to buy every single pieces of china medal after releasing by the mints. There are large variety of China medal issued each year by 4 major official mints and well reputable non-official mints. This is the excitement time for investment type of collectors which test your experiences and skills of selecting right medal with highly potential investment value. Every investor yield different results by their own decision which is no different of other type of investment like share, foreign currency, gold and silver, commodity, property and others. Select the right medal or not will eventually be verified by time and prove your own judgment. A comprehensive comparison of the medal theme, creativity, design, sculpture, manufacturers, production technology, market price and among other factors to make a rational and reasonable buying choice are crucial in the buying decision. However, "impulsive" and "How dare you" are important if you have not time to do the comprehensive comparison. You might miss the boat or/and buy at high price after done the comprehensive comparison. You will yield you return either in short or/and long term period depend of your choice. Generally, the return is highly depending on the market response (demand) and good availability (supply). Therefore, the private investor or developer of medal must strive for a better product in terms of design, manufacturing technology and advancement, quality (i.e less white spot, hairline, toning and so on to get better grade at NGC and PCGS), acceptable issue price and after issue price and all other factors as compare to competitors to yield a desire return. They need to strive to do better products, more quality, but also need to develop a reasonable rules so more collectors to accept the product and market price. This is the long-term path for both developers and collectors to create a harmony and win-win culture. The charm of buying china medal due to the strive to improve the store consciousness, choose good varieties collection and investment. The competition among china medal in the industry has spoilt end consumers with better stuff as compare to Others. The competition, free, fair and rational "rules of the game", is driving the china medal arts continue to move forward, even in the face of some short-term ups and downs and setbacks, it will return to the track of healthy development. This empower the industry to maintain the cornerstone of long-term development. Therefore, the development and prospects of large bronze medallion should not be underestimated, the future will be bright.
As a collector, the most important factor I want a medal to have is high quality. What is "high quality"? It's simple....to me it means the employment of craftspeople / artists who create good design and are skilled at sculpting / engraving. It also means good quality production of the medal. This is the absolute minimum I require for me to even begin to consider buying a medal. My personal preferences include high relief, low mintage, and large size. I am willing to pay good $$$ for high quality but I am not interested in buying medals that are low quality....even if they are popular or in high demand by lots of other people. That's because I do not want to reward a company just because they are able to widely promote and market a product while producing a piece of junk. The Perth Mint has done this with their pathetic Globs of Old-Limp-Puss medals and they will never get my $$$ so long as they put out what I see as garbage medals. I'm not into rewarding low quality with my hard earned $$ even if the product is produced by a well known or "official" mint. I don't buy medals as a get rich quick pump-and-dump investment. That's not me. .
hey hey I see you. Carftmanship is one of the major factor in selection. Medal is type of art instead of fiat money. Famous artist also have low tide period produce average design. The medal might get a good design BUT make by average mints. Therefore, the article did point out all link up to strive for a good medal which is widely accept and appreciate with same taste of collector. One junk might be another treasure. As I mentioned, I am collector BUT also a seller. I buy many and keep what I like as you. I have 2 boxes medal reach me today yet to take photo.
Andrewlee10 Thanks for your write up and the effort you put into it. It is a great outline of the subject matter. Hopefully with time we shall flesh it out because there are many aspects of the collection/investment process to be discussed. Take for example transparency. I must immediately say that I have absolutely no accusations of impropriatery or misdeed here. However, a lot of discussions you see online examplify the issue I am talking about. So much effort is made to determine or guess critical information by collectors that should have been supplied by the mints. Although the mint may release the number of planned mintage they often do not tell us how many got minted eventually; we have to depend on guesswork or hearsay to estimate these numbers. We do not know how many coins/medals were released to the public and how many are held in reserve. We do not know how many were recalled or returned and if any coins were melted due to poor sales or defects. Coin/medal collection involves not just buying the coin but participating in the process of development, production and the narrative behind the product. Some of the information may already be available in Mandarin but most international collectors, who form a sizable and important group of MCC collectors, do not read Chinese language scripts. Therefore this material should be translated and published online at the minimum. I am sure wikipedia can act a repository of such information. I don't want to name any particular coin or medal to keep the discussion generic and even keeled but the reason I collect certain coins and medals has do with what I have read and heard about them and the interpretation of their design proposal. I am sure it will take time for things to evolve but the successful MCC developers/mints of the future will be those who can provide everything you have already discussed and more information we will outline in this and other threads. With increased competition and improvement in the TOTAL package collectors will vote with their feet towards products that win out. One or two more comments! The integrity of the whole process is also important in determining the viability of any new coin release. This incldes the integrity and track record of individuals, groups and mints involved in the process. While bias may be a factor in individual situations objective determination will show if a coin/medal product is wholesome and will be evident to EVERY collector despite anyone's protestations or obfuscation. The truth always emerges! Integrity has to do with every aspect of the coin development and production, not hiding critical information and trying to hoodwink and not respecting your collector customers. Mmissinglink has mentioned "pumping and dumping". This may be a sensitive subject due to recent controversies online but should not be avoided. The definition of "pumping" could be nebulous but eventually people start noticing patterns that are inappropriate and unwholesome. Again while a culprit may protest initially the truth emerges eventually as the MCC collection world is still very small and it does not take much for all collectors to clue in on what is taking place. And just like every aspect of life where integrity is lost it is rarely ever regained. Just like in petty crime "pumping and dumping" is carried out by nitwits. This in no way at all precludes a coin/medal entrepreneur/mint from proactively providing objective information material and publicity about any new coin launch. Information is more credible if coming from the source of the medals. The task is keeping it objective and not over the top. Visual, written, audio and a combination of all formats can be used in a tasteful manner to provide collectors with what they need to make informed choices and enjoy their hobby/venture. The last point has to do with finances. Although certain collectors may be well heeled my impression of most collectors in this and other forums is that they are average joes with a few being above average with respect to their disposable income. Some even have to divert their scant/critical resources into particular coin buys. It is IMPORTANT that mints/entrepreneurs and all middlemen respect their buyers by offering reasonable prices for their products. Most people can only be shafted once or twice before they wise up. Subsequently some may become broody and vengeful, stalking "customers" who lie patiently in wait until they can exact their revenge. It is very human to revenge! Most importantly, inappropriately priced items will be recognized and customers will keep away from them. Most of us are beginning to find out or figure out the release price of coins/medals and know when they are being gouged. Making money is not incompatible with INTELLIGENT, ethical, professional and commercial activity in MCC products. No one expects a coin developer/producer to sell at cost as long as the product is good. No, they are expected to make a profit to cover their innovation, risks taken, living costs and ultimately funding of new coin development. Without profit MCC production may stagnate and fold up. Sellers are also expected to make a profit for similar considerations. The question is what is a reasonable profit? I will not fall into the trap of proffering a certain figure/percentage. The entrepreneur should pull out his/her calculator and figure out the costs and what makes sense. The initial coin launch price has to be reasonable. I have already written elsewhere that if a producer wants to share in the appreciation of their coins they should put away a certain percentage of coins and slowly sell when the coins appreciate to whatever level they want. Coins must be sold at prices that will allow collectors and investors gain some price appreciation. If not they will stop buying, and who suffers then?!! I don't necessarily want to use the words "whale price" but no buyer will thank a producer/mint/seller for this; he or she will ultimately seek restitution/redress/revenge somehow! I previously wrote a little essay on what I would do if I was to develop and produce a coin/medal. This is all theory as I do not have any such plans yet. (I never rule out anything due to the adventures of life). But that should not prevent anyone or people from bandying ideas. I'll find it where I published it on this forum and republish it here. Once more thanks andrewlee10 for your initiative. It sure beats the "my Mercedes is better than yours" type of discussion we tend to get into at times! You have kept your write up neutral. I humbly ask all to keep it objective and not start exhaulting or lambasting specific products. I'll write further if the need arises. Thanks.
I previously published this under "Our Daily Bread..." thread: This is an opinion of possible MCC production strategies, outside of the yearly Panda and other coins and medals regularly released by official mints in China. My question is this: What is the best strategy for producing coins/medals that will attract a lot of interest, sell very well and appreciate in value in a respectable manner over time? I am asking this because I have noted that some recent private sector sponsored Panda medals are being sold for amounts that many forum members are unhappy with. And these members are not misers! Rather they are mostly experienced collectors, investors and sellers. Furthermore, thousands of these medals were minted to boot!(BTW this write up does not refer to any coin or medal that has been presented or discussed in this current forum thread). I believe that to be successful a medal should be well designed and relevant in some way, culturally, historically or in any other way. It must stir something emotional and make someone want to buy the medal, bad! It shouldn't just be another Panda coin, there has to be something extra! It probably should weigh at least 2oz but can be heavier. It could be made of .999 silver but a set comprising of silver, brass and copper may arouse more interest. In fact a three metal set with the same COA# will be unique enough and sell faster. It also should be well designed, sculptured and engraved. And none of those white spots and haze! The mintage is of critical importance. I believe that a coin or medal should be minted in just enough numbers calculated to sell out at the mint or major distributor's within 6-9 months. Coins still being sold after a certain number of months from the mint or major distributor's shop could depress prices of coins already sold and roaming around in the population! Perhaps pricing is one of the most important attributes of a best selling coin. But this is where some producers and sponsors have gone totally wrong. Examples I have in mind are too expensive by any standards. Their current launch prices are what the medals should actually be sold or resold at in 6-12 months' time or more. It is as if the producer wants to make all the profit and eat into the coin appreciation potential at the same time. This is whale pricing and does not make any sense! If the producer wants to share in the price appreciation of their product they probably need to lock away <10% of the coins and quietly sell slowly as the value increases. This will be similar to what founders of stock-market listed companies do with some of their stock and stock options. If I was to produce a silver medal today (I have absolutely no capability or plans for doing so today!) I will sell the ungraded 1oz silver for less than $50USD and the 2oz coin for less than $120. If I produced a 5oz silver coin I believe a sale price of less than $300 will allow it to be sold fast. Mintage and coin launch sale price should have an inverse relationship; larger mintages should be priced very affordably. And what is large? Probably anything more than 999 minted. Again, using specific examples I may mint up to 3000 1oz silver coins, less than 500 2oz coins and less than 200 5oz coins. These are just figures I am throwing out without any technical expertise in minting or numismatics. However, I believe that these are figures that may attract more interest than the current out of hand pricing some have complained about recently. Anyway, these are thoughts that come to mind whenever I see dyssynchrony in mintage/pricing of coins at release. Perhaps other forum members may have a contrary opinion or additional information to help carry the thought process forward. Thanks. Last edited by KeepOnTrying! (2015-06-03 23:08:40)
KOT, Excellent points and very well articulated! I like everything you'd written. A few comments regarding your points: 1) The Chinese mints aren't the only mints to sometimes not provide data that collectors / buyers feel is relevant or important. And yes, all mints ought to really pay attention to providing occasional updated info on actual mintage numbers. 2) I particularly like what you'd written about "integrity" 3) The reason I lambaste the Perth Mint's Gods of Olympus coins is because I know the PM is capable of producing high quality designs and yet they chose to do just the opposite with that series. And I know that some will say that it's all just a matter of personal, subjective opinion, but I say only to a point is it. 4) Though I am a collector and have no intention of buying medals just to flip, I certainly don't condemn those who buy and sell and I have no problem with people who make a profit from buying and selling. I do have a problem with the pump & dump salesman and while the line I draw between buy and sell for profit vs pump and dump may be a bit grey on occasion, I think it has more to do with intention and honesty than anything else. .
To be frank, there is little transparency in china medal market even you read mandarin. This is fats and culture which is good or bad. It is good if you have good judgment and resourceful enough. Example, I am able to fish 1988 ANA medal at USD150 and JC8888 want to buy from me. Frank Wong is able to buy medal at very low price before it become famous and increase more than 100% or even thousand %. This is the fun of unpredictable and adventures which in Chinese blood. They love this type of adventures and gamble. This is one of the heap of the china electronics platform for coin. Bad is too many uncertainties which stop the cautious type of collectors/investors further participation as you cited. Can the western power stop the listing of the electronics platform or affect the way it work? Currently the answer is simple "NO". it might not be in future too except people like Solo will join in and force them to do his way. Success or fail is another case. Punch of the Modern medal except Lunar are commissioned by private investors. They are damn bad in marketing and not willing to promote like Perth Mints. They have no resources and capital to mints high mintage medal for silver like Garden. Loss once means will go bankrupt. I will use classical garden series and few china modern medals as examples. I have no misdeed on it. Please not feel heat if I have any offence/bias to the cases. As cited, china medal is fierce in competition in china which make their workmanship so good. Those investors are focusing on china market which contribute big share of their business. Not many investors are as rich as garden series to do a tri languages explanation book for the series. Even the garden series took years to reach this level. The investor and mints themselves does not do a lot marketing activities like western mints for their coins. They got no distributor networks as western mints because it is medal NOT coins. Frank did translate those classical garden information and post in forum. He did for other old medals too. He is not classical garden investor and dealer BUT he did volunteer to give western collectors more information on good deed and at his on time and cost without any benefits. There are not many Frank in this market. It is not possible for him to translate even 80% of the newly issue china medal to English speaking collector for free. Do we realise most information publish of those medal is by individual either collectors or dealers? The information is here and there. MINTS does not publish publicly and marketing it to foreign countries. Do we come across the mints publish the actual mintage in public? The classical garden mintage publish by individual if I am not wrong. The translation in foreign language and more publish public information by the mints might take long times as my personal view. Or it might not happen too if no investor would like to pump in extra capital and resources. Those extra capital and resources will also increase the selling price of the medal which eventually pass on to collectors. Personally, I view the investors still focus mainly on china rather than foreign market. Only few dealers and reseller try to make it better and promote it to overseas. I agree the effort is not enough. However, think about the tiffany art coin which price range from USD400K to 1K Plus with high mintage. Will anyone pay USD400 for panda goat silver proof at issue price? The launch price is USD150 if I am not wrong. It mintage is 299 which is much lower than tiffany art coin. The cost is much higher than tiffany art series so it need price at USD 600or more if they do the same marketing activities. However, the buyer will drop sharply if the issue price at > USD600. This is my personal view.
If I am not wrong no mints does official provide publish information in public in bi-lingual except the coa and explanation booklet at the coin. It is more individual and dealers publish in China forum. However the information is not details as required as your first few paragraphs. "The question is what is a reasonable profit?" this is really a tough question. USD 100 might be enough for someone BUT another want USD 1 mio. It is really individual. The existence of "Cartel law and anti trust law" in many advanced and developed countries "to prevent price fixing and monopoly". It exists decades BUT still not solving the problem till now. There is no enforcement law to regulate china medal market. even there is will it facing the same issue like "cartel and anti trust law"? An American ebay seller is famous in pick China modern coin at low price then relist in ebay selling higher or re slab it to get higher mark to gain more than 60% margin. He has the reputation and regular customers for many years and survive very well. Is this reasonable? someone will say yes BUT someone will say NO. As cited in one forum which I came across that collectors are saying one famous china ebay seller sell at "whale price" and another sell at "cheap price". Both of them have extreme strategy with each others. However, they survive well in ebay for years and years. Why? I do not quote the name of the above which might cause me into trouble I assume you guy know them lol Personally, I like tiffany art coin BUT I view it too pricy. someone might view it cheap. I really like this type of healthy discussion KOT. Please pm me if I am bias and run out of direction.
Andy, I can't see any bias in what you are writing and you are making a lot of good points. You are detailing the current state of the MCC field. The "unstructured" nature of the MCC market and business is what makes it all exciting; the intrigue, rumors and colorful characters! Herein in your write-up are examples of tips for success for aspiring MCC product developers and sellers. (1) You can generate more sales if you take your customers along with you as you develop, produce and market your product. (2) You not only should explore the local Chinese market you should also tap into the vast oversea market for MCC; multiple streams of income!
Thank's KOT. I am in discussion with 2 investors who are reputable in china coin and medal industry to commission my own medal. I will take BOB into it for sure. This is the initial plan and not firm yet. My concern is I have no time physically to go china 3 -5 trip to co-ordinate this Matters. I also need some technique experience of the manufacturing medal and coin and other skills. I love to build more information of medal like Frank BUT I really have no extra time. I have 3 boxes of medal from last 2 weeks. Some for sell and some for collection. I even has no time to sort this out and post to ebay
If you don't have enough time why are you then starting a business? In my experience you need to devote enough personal time to make it successful.
Simple logic, this is my toy business which I do it part time at my free time. I love to play with my toy at all my free times I feel I am success since I collect only for one year plus and I have those skills and experiences that many do not)) I will not rule out this will not become my full time business in future.
