BULLIONMARK & AUSTRAC $5000 threshold limit

Hi Guys & Girls

I came across this site a 6 months ago looking for the Threshold Limited on buying bullion without verification of your identity.

I found Goldpelican's post - http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-882-austrac-and-bullion-sales.html

So thinking that the limit was $10,000 I began to buy 1oz kookaburras.

The first lot was $1270 then I bought another lot worth $2070 and last week I placed an order worth $2300 for a total of $5640 over a period of 2 months.

Whilst waiting for my last order, I received an email from Bullionmark stating I need to fill out an AUSTRAC form, saying that I had gone over my threshold. I contacted the dealer via email to clarify why I was sent this form, and they insisted that I needed to fill out the form in order for the transaction to be complete.

The specifics of the email are as follows:

"Please be advised that we regularly consult Austrac regarding the latest requirements in order to meet our legal obligations, like most legislation there are many sections and we have been advised by Austrac to verifiy identity for transactions over $5000 as per the following section of the legislation:

Sections 39 and 247 of the AML/CTF Act provide for exemption from identification requirements.

The Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Rules Amendment Instrument 2009 (No. 2) has added Chapter 33 into the AML/CTF Rules, providing an exemption for reporting entities from carrying out customer identification procedures for purchases or sales of bullion when the retail value of the transaction is less than $5,000."

I then specified that I wished to cancel my order to maintain my privacy, to which I was penalised a $95.00 fee.

Giddyup Jimsilver

 

I think they should not TAKE YOUR MONEY until you are eligible to buy.
They are basically penalizing you because they neglected to inform you on the contrition of sale.
They are makeing the same profit from you regardless you buy or not.

 

goldpelican,

If this is the case then why does it not apply for everyone. I know a few people that have a total order that exceeds way above what I've ordered, and they haven't had to fill out a form.

Secondly, I was under the assumption that this rule only applied in one single transaction, not an accumulation over time. If this is the case, it should be clearly displayed on the website.

Giddyup Jimisilver

 

Bullionmark, could you please clarify the timeframe this purchase limit applies over?

 

As for the reason I titled this thread, was not to discredit BULLIONMARK but rather to inform the good people on this forum.

I do not wish them to acquire losses due to assumptions.

This is a warning for people who buy from any dealer, I used BULLIONMARK as a description of the facts.

Giddyup Jimsilver

 

mmm i don't like the sounds of this...

I too think dealers need to be more upfront about their policies. If this is the case then so be it, but it should be clearly displayed on their site.

I also thought it only applied if the order was made in a single transaction and not an accumulation over time.

Out of good practice, i think BullionMark should not charge "Jimsilver" the $95 exit fee. If this was done to me I would be very unhappy.

I think it's poor practice to charge an exit fee about a rule that is not clearly displayed.

 

Jimsilver, the AUSTRAC rules say that dealers can ask for ID for transactions as little as $10 if they want to as part of their anti-money laundering policy. The fact that they don't actually tell you what their policy is until you run afoul of it is the issue and yes, my understanding is also that the $5000 limit on purchases before ID is required is a per transaction limit rather than an accumulated transaction value over a period of time (as far as AUSTRAC is concerned, otherwise they would have published something saying so).

The $95 cancellation fee is pretty iffy as you haven't technically completed a sale and therefore don't have a binding contract with the merchant. Without a contract, they have no reason to take money from you. This is why the terms and conditions of sale, including the requirement to produce ID, should be clearly explained before accepting your order. Trying to slip it in before the merchant completes their part of the transaction is just shonky.

I'm not sure exactly about the standing case law in contract "certainty" (which is what the issue is here), but you might find this site helpful if you want to try getting your $95 back.

[Edit] Forgot the link to contract law overview: http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/

 

Hey guys thanks for your support & information on this issue.

I'm led to believe that BULLIONMARK rep. reads this forum so I will leave this issue up to his discretion as to what comes of it.

I'm just a little fish battling against the Evil Empire ( JP Morgan )

Giddyup Jimsilver

 

This is why I don't buy from dealer who insistently ask for ID. ABC sydney don't give a rat ass with ID requirement even if you buy 3 days in a row with $4999 each purchase. They have reasonable price, have over the counter transaction, no fuss about ID gathering, overall ABC scored 10/10 when it comes to privacy.

They make buying PM as easy as buying Chinese takeout. This is how it should be with anything.

This ID requirement is a government control, they wanna know what you do with your money, what I do with my money is my business I appreciate it if a bunch of bureaucrats keep their noses away...

 

This info should be clearly displayed and not hidden amongst a 4000 word document. Nothing more to say.

 

PLEASE READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE BEFORE PROCEEDING

I don't see what the problem is.

 

kram I don't have a problem.

Its only $95 but I think BULLIONMARK has got a problem now that good people on this forum are informed about the $5000 limit.

Besides do u read the fine print on ur car or house insurance.

Give me a break, all they need to do is clearly state on their website the $5000 limited so ur average battler is clearly informed.

Giddyup Jimsilver

 

This is probably a good thread to hilight that we need to check T&C when buying.

Return/cancellation polices serve a purpose, but can also be applied or not at the discretion of the business.

I applaud and commend those business that instead choose to be client friendly.

Even motor licence demerit points have an expirey period.

Looks like Bullionmark might close the trap on you even if you spread your purchase over 10 years!

I don't think that is at all what Austrac has in mind.

 

TBH, I haven't purchased anything from BM but have actually read their terms in the past. So was aware of their requirements once you hit 5k over a period of time

 

Looks like they are legally protected, but like in the insurance policies you won't find out the fine details until you need them. In case if you order is under $95 they even can send a debt collector .

 

Oh well lesson learnt at a small price.

Lesson 1 - read the terms & conditions

Lesson 2 - only buy bullion using cash

Lesson 3 - hold onto ur bullion when the Evil Empire shakes the tree



Giddyup Jimsilver