HI Alor, Why do you think I should know all that as a buyer, buyer beware is just that "buyer beware" - it is not a legal requirement. Buyer beware is to minimise hassles. Bait Advertising is illegal, what these people are hoping is that the buyer will agree to upgrade or get a refund. If I lived in the USA maybe it is just $10 return postage, from Australia it would be like $70 or $80. Another way of putting it would be, if a registered business dealer in this forum with 7000 feedback described as it is on that ebay site, and the item was bought by newbie with 0 feedback, and a week later the buyer wrote - I didn't realise it was Bullion, I thought I was buying PL because it came with the case (Pictured) And reply came back, Oh you should have known better, send it back for refund at your cost or pay me extra $xxx for an upgrade. I am not sure what you would say But even though I dont know the buyer, I would likely to comment in support of the newbie buyer, but that is just me.
To those who find this Libertad scamming tactic acceptable..... There's no reason whatsoever, except to defraud unsuspecting buyers, that someone would put the bullion kilo into the PL box and sell it as if it were the PL kilo without clearly indicating that it isn't the PL kilo. That you think it's okay that a seller tries to pull off a scam like this speaks volumes about your lack of integrity and complete lack of transparency and your willingness to condone dishonesty. Please, if you have an eBay account and you sell on eBay, provide me that name so that I can be sure to never bother to consider buying a thing from you because I do not want to support those who find dishonesty completely acceptable. .
I contacted this seller (and 2 other sellers trying to pull off similar scams) weeks ago, suggesting to these sellers to make it abundantly transparent and clear that the coin in the auction is NOT the PL version but rather the common, not rare or scarce (as at least one of these sellers is describing the common bu version put in the PL box), unlimited mintage bu version. These sellers, for the most part, have done zero to change their description which means that they harbor the intention to defraud.....period. They are disreputable scammers....who knows how many other coins they have sold to unsuspecting buyers, newbies or novices which were falsely advertised but not discovered to be something other than what was advertised. Just because a seller has a lot of positive feedback doesn't mean that the seller isn't engaging in dishonest selling activity. .
Figures you would defend the scammer. 999 DOES NOT mean bullion. ".999" describes the silver content. The PL kilo coin is precisely ".999" silver. So the "999" claim does not in any way, shape, or form mean that the coin is the bullion version. Everything about that auction shows it to be a scam meant to deceive the unsuspecting buyer. Many Libertad buyers do not know the difference between the way the PL version looks and the bu version looks. Besides, from certain pictures alone, it is virtually impossible to tell the difference. This sellers pictures are not good quality because the angle of the lighting is poor....intentionally done this way perhaps. So the fact that the seller has not clearly indicated that the coin being sold is the common unlimited mintage bu version shows the scamming intent of the seller.....this is especially true since it's been weeks ago that I suggested to this seller to change the title and description. The seller changed not a thing because so long as he can get away with defrauding unsuspecting buyers, he will. .
Not that I'm defending anybody, especially as I don't know any of the before (after) mentioned sellers. It might be also that some sellers made a mistake, intentionally or not I don't know. It could be that some don't know there is a difference, they were tricked by there suppliers or they are just too lazy to find a proper image. Whereas relatively "small" picture shows here that it goes for PL: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-MEXICA...885198?hash=item2eec1e020e:g:OC0AAOSwDNdVzjqz It's less clear here if you do a quick look: http://www.ebay.com/itm/KILO-2009-M...389237?hash=item280c336f35:g:RBUAAOSw~1FUYNSv Or also here: https://www.emk.com/en-us/search?q=libertad+kilo I sometimes notice that people create auctions on eBay for silver coins, but due to lighting they look like gold coins. I once complained to one of the sellers and he uploaded additional pictures. I don't understand why somebody would keep PL kilo without the box and COA, unless he is certain he will never sell it and try to mess around by selling BU version. Recently I asked some seller why some kilo coin is without COA and he said it was lost. It might be true, it might be now. It's hard to be certain, that's why it's good to think twice before buying something, especially if it looks too good to be true.
mountain out of a mole hill. I contacted the seller and he immediately rectified the issue - he's a top bloke and certainly not willing to tarnish his reputation over 1 coin listing. stop tying to start a witch hunt, not justified.
Stark, plenty of these sellers do know the difference....especially the one's that I contact and inform them that their listing is misleading and I explain why. I have contacted plenty of sellers over the years to notify them that they are misleading with their dis- and misinformation. Some (which is already too many) sellers don't have an ounce of integrity or honesty...they don't care that they are scamming unsuspecting buyers. From your links, the son-montuno auction is clear and when I place my cursor over the pics, a large version of that image pops on screen from which quite readily one can see the difference in luster between the fields and the device. Darker shadows and lighter highlights on a surface generally means a more highly reflective surface (like a proof-like finish) than a tone which contains less contrast (more uniform midtones) like an ordinary bu finish. With the celebritystars auction, the photos are not so well taken to show the distinctive difference between the luster in the fields vs the luster in the devices. That seller likely didn't use good lighting technique. But still, if you look carefully, you can see the higher contrast in the Winged Victoria statue. Both these auctions make it clear that what you are bidding on is definitely the PL version. There's no misleading there. The EMK page shows genuine PL versions. A seller can can a PL version graded and therefore the wood box becomes empty. But if selling that slabbed coin the seller then ought to have the wooden box be part of the sale. If the seller chooses to use the wooden box then the seller must make it explicitly and abundantly clear in the title and description that the coin being put in that box is NOT the original PL version but rather the common unlimited mintage bu version. The scamming sellers do not make it abundantly clear that this is the case even though they are well aware that these coins can be easily confused if such a thing ( selling a bu coin in a PL wooden box) is done. .
Clearly you have very serious reading comprehension issues. You ought to address that problem sooner rather than later as it reflects very poorly on your ability to make a cogent argument. As I've mentioned more than once here in this thread, I already notified that seller weeks ago and the seller refused to make the auction clear at the time I began this thread. That you don't see this as a serious problem defines the type of individual you are. Based on your attitude here, there would be no reason for someone to believe that you would use the same misleading tactics. If you have an eBay account, please share your account name with me (you can PM it to me) so that I can know to avoid dealing with you on eBay. .
I'm saying you clearly didn't or he missed your message, because the seller is as polite as they come and fixed the problem as soon as I spoke with him.
Predictably, you have again wrongly assumed things that are not true at all or you are a shill for that dishonest seller. This doesn't surprise me in the least. Back in early August, that seller and I had a conversation that entailed several back and forth messages regarding the coin not being the PL version The seller acknowledged directly in a message to me that the coin has no reverse proof features. Yet, the seller, a month later still made no changes to the auction description. This is clearly the sign of a seller who doesn't care about truth telling in terms of selling this coin. It's people like this seller and those who pathetically shill for or defend the mis- and disinformation (as part of a sale) who are a part of the problem in the world today. .
sorry, don't buy it. he told you the truth it seems, his listing never said PL, and when I spoke to him he immediately changed the listing to prevent anyone from buying in error (not that the amendment was even needed in my opinion). If that's your definition of a dishonest seller then I can't be of anymore help here. You need to put down the pitchfork and think rationally.
I don't need your ludicrous presumptions....I have the truth on my side. That seller is a scam artist looking to hoodwink unsuspecting buyers. That you defend fraudulent behavior and dishonesty is not a surprise to me at all. Does that come easy for you or do you work hard at it? .
You are free to believe what you want just as you're free to judge me however you like, I don't really care what a random bloke on the internet thinks of me. My tolerance ends when you start spouting out words that can damage a persons livelihood, that is not ok. So let me surmise one more time - I have spoken to the seller, he runs a genuine business with 100% positive feedback and comes across as courteous and professional. The listing was edited the moment he realised there was potential for a mix-up, and he thanked me for letting him know. Given that, everything is rosy in my book.
Aureus, Does carrying on like a pouting child come easy to you? You seem to do it with such ease. Your presuppositions are ludicrous beyond the pale. 1. Clearly you are absolutely clueless about how eBay feedback works. It's not difficult at all for a dishonest seller to have a 100% positive feedback. First of all, all negative feedback goes away after 12 months. This has been in place with eBay for quite some time now (eBay's feedback rating system didn't start that way but they have changed it since those early years). Next, negative feedback can not be left for a crooked scam seller if this seller refunds the buyer who he has sold an item that was intentionally not described accurately. This means that a seller can scam all he wants with no negative feedback left for him so long as he refunds a buyer who happens to have caught onto the scam in time. Finally, an unsuspecting buyer may not realize s/he has been scammed until after 60 days at which time feedback can no longer be left. 2. The absurdity you embrace in lieu of logic is a tell tale sign of why your pre-suppositions are so ludicrous. That you hold the fanatical belief that just because someone is acting nicely toward you means that the individual is running a genuine business is bizarre to say the very least. You are guilty of conflating a single personal anecdotal experience with something that has nothing at all to do with whether a seller has or hasn't used deceptive descriptions in one or more listings. To claim that a seller who has already been proven to use deceptive listing practices is professional just because the seller fed you nicety jargon shows that you have no concept of what it means to run a reputable business. 3. The only person here who is damaging a person's livelihood is you since you are condoning deceptive selling practices by one seller which could easily lead to a different seller who is reputable to lose on one or more sales. You are harming reputable sellers by your defense of scammer selling behavior. You are only causing problems. On the other hand, I always seek to fix problems and that's precisely why I call out sellers who engage in disreputable or dishonest behavior. Some sellers that I have contacted about their problematic listings have actually changed their descriptions to reflect what I'd pointed out. Others, like seller rare-modern-coins on eBay, have not in at least 1 case that I'm personally aware of. Aureus, you can stop with your nutty behavior now....I get it that you condone deception and scamming. You don't have to dig your grave any deeper than it already is. .
you can say that some seller are outright dishonest but once you experience it yourselves, then you STOP dealing with the seller the intention is not visible from the listing, but even with the right picture, buyer can receive an item totally different from the picture, and all excuses would come out from the seller. you know it and its just too costly to be bothered with. this is the buyer's decision to deal into in the first place. there is always risk involved dealing with people whom you do not know. if eBay has this loophole updating and not showing complete picture, they are partners in crime in progress looking for victims :lol: some people are colour blind, so they will see grey area everywhere. selling with the intention to cheat what do you call it.... the bigger the lie the more people would believe the LIE.
Intention can be derived from behavior. If a seller acknowledges that his own listing is clearly misleading and has several weeks in which to very easily correct that which he acknowledges is a problem........and doesn't bother to correct it, then this behavior can very reasonably and rationally be deemed suspicious. That's precisely why I created this thread......to point out such suspicious behavior which I have rationally and reasonably deemed to be intentionally dishonest. Period. .
The auction in question is the link below. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Kilo-3...163102?hash=item51ea69f35e:g:3noAAOSw9NdXvaeT To me, the seller has pretty clear pictures of what he is selling. Maybe he has extras PL boxes and just adds these in as a way enhance his bullion listings and offer something other bullion coin sellers cannot. Coin buyers, in particular, are a suspicious bunch always thinking someone is trying to scam, bamboozle, get one over, trick, or commit fraud against them. I get messages about my listings from time to time on topics all over the map. I usually just update the listing with the new information and thank the person who brought it to my attention even when I feel it was a rather silly thing. The challenge though lies in the fact that some sellers are up to nefarious things and truly trying to be deceptive. It sort of gives those that are not a bad rap. I give you an example below of how hard it can be to please everyone with the listing: When selling a graded coin: I put the population number - message comes in that I am being deceptive because the number is wrong (usually due to a few new coins being graded and I can't possibly keep checking the ngc database to ensure all coins are up to date all the time with so many coins listed) I don't put the population number - message comes in that I should include population numbers as those are vital to a buying decision I say "low population" - message comes in that the population number in question is not low and I am being deceptive I say "limited population" - message comes in that I am being deceptive because limited really has no meaning. Now keep in mind I am not trying to do any deceptive but in each case, the perspective buyer is suspicious of my motives. I suppose my point is that not everyone is out there trying to deceive and I would tend to give a long term seller with high feedback numbers the benefit of the doubt. If it makes your spidey sense tingle though....don't buy it.
mtforpar, the examples you've given are really not analogous to what my contention is with that seller I referred to. I don't see it as deceptive to not have your listing updated every time NGC updates their database. Additionally, terms such as "low" and "limited" are subjective though not inaccurate whereas NOT noting in the title or description area that a common bu Lib which looks virtually identical to a PL Lib in poor quality pictures is not subjective but rather deceptive. With the seller of the kilo Libertad, his pictures of the coin are not good quality pictures at all. The lighting he used is problematic. The fact that he may have an extra PL box is not a good reason to put a bu coin in it and sell it as if it were a PL coin....which is precisely what he was doing (and still is). No where in the title or description area of the auction does it make clear that the coin being offered is NOT the PL version but rather the common bu version put into a PL version box for some very questionable and suspicious reason. Only in the "Item Condition" box did this seller bother to mention that it's the bullion version....which is first of all not a good and not the right place to point out such an important distinction like that. It could be easily overlooked because once someone sees "Pristine Condition/Tone Free" (which is the first thing in that box) they could reasonably believe that that is all that's important about the actual condition of the coin and the rest is merely tertiary or secondary detail about how pristine the coin is. What that scamming seller is doing is akin to taking a bu 5 oz ATB coin and putting it in the US Mint box that the 5 oz uncirculated ATB coin of the same design came in while using poor quality photos and while not bothering at all to indicate in the title or item description section of the auction that the switcheroo was done. And we are not talking about some redneck generic sneaker seller who just happens to be selling a coin....we are talking about a seller whose eBay business (and perhaps even off eBay business) is selling coins!! Therefore its not reasonable for him to claim that he would NOT know the crucial importance of making it abundantly clear in the title and description that he has done a switcheroo with the coins. That's his business to know it's critical to be very transparent. He's a scammer pure and simple. Anyone who thinks that a coin seller can not be scammer is fooling them self big time. I'm not saying you believe there are no scamming coin sellers, mtforpar, but certainly at least 1 SS member appears to clearly believe such a thing. My view is that we need to stop giving a pass to coin sellers who carry on with selling practices that are disreputable....because it harms the many good and reputable sellers out there. .
Missing, the point of my example was that what many people find deceptive another person will not. It is very hard to please a large swath of potential customers all who are on the lookout for how you might be deceiving them. Those are real messages from real customers over time. You fall into the camp of not thinking those are deceptive and we agree. There are those out there who disagree with us. When I look at the pics in the link I provided I can clearly tell it is a BU coin, not a PL. Of course, I know what I am looking for. Those are pretty good high-resolution pics that take up nearly my whole screen when I mouse over them. I would be comfortable buying the coin from those pics if I were going to buy an overpriced box...lol. I suppose some unknowing buyer might not know what they are looking for and make the mistake thinking the box is what makes it a PL coin. He changed the description under item condition to elaborate on what he is offering so I suppose the point is mute now.
We will have to agree to disagree on the validity of the examples you've given in terms of being analogous to the issue of leaving out critical info from an auction title and description as the switcheroo seller of the bu Libertad has done. The size of the picture is more or less irrelevant. Instead, what is relevant is the lighting. I can easily point a complete novice to tiny pictures of the 2 different versions of the kilo Libertads taken in good lighting and there would be no ambiguity at all about the difference. Yet, it takes a very experienced trained eye of someone who is quite familiar with how a reverse proof finish might look to be able to discern which coin that switcheroo seller has listed. I already know that I'm right because I did precisely such a test with a friend of mine who knows next to nothing about coins. She was completely stumped by the switcheroos seller's pictures but not at all stumped by these tiny pictures: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI3WDIyOA==/$(KGrHqF,!lMFIO5H3RM0BSLr!N!LSg~~60_1.JPG?set_id=2 , http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/TvQAAOSwzJ5Xe1Jq/s-l225.jpg , http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/jIsAAOSwXeJXfE2C/s-l225.jpg . As I've noted, the size of the picture is more or less irrelevant.....the lighting is the important thing to get right and the switcheroo seller didn't get that right at all. As for the claim that the point is mute....not at all true since neither the title nor the description notes that the coin in the auction is the bu coin mysteriously placed in the PL box and not the PL coin. It's still very deceptive and that amounts to a seller who is trying to pull of a scam. .
