vaccination is on the table again

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by dragafem, Apr 12, 2015.

  1. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That's the big thing here... people getting so indignant about potentially not receiving handouts.
     
  2. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    We are expected to have respect for other cultures/religions but people deciding for themselves about what gets put into their bodies and you support pulling their benefits?

    I will state Im not big on benefits and I dont like how some do feel entitled to them HOWEVER cutting people off based on standing strong to their beliefs on vaccination (be they either right or wrong...and yes we afford this respect to religious and cultural customs) is outright wrong.
    I would rather there was a focus on centrelink and disability pension frauds.
     
  3. FlashInThePan

    FlashInThePan Member

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    If that's the herd position, then I am highly highly encouraged. I thought I was on the outside ready to be picked off.
     
  4. FlashInThePan

    FlashInThePan Member

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    You must be seated at an elevated positional view to oversee the bigger picture Willrocks
    Must take note of your perspective
     
  5. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Family benefits and pensions are two methods by which the state increases it's financial influence into people's lives. These payments also come at the expense of the productive class. Withholding pensions and baby bonuses etc may well help focus some debate on the legitimacy of pensions and other paid benefits - which are just forms of economic bribery.
     
  6. dragafem

    dragafem Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    not just pension,the list can go on...dont wanna put it in their head but I think they think about it in this very minute...
     
  7. nickybaby

    nickybaby Member Silver Stacker

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    I'll start with the mundane. The medical scientist refers to the masters degree I obtained from Loughborough University in Medicinal Chemistry and Drug Metabolism. Its a basic way of saying that I synthesis/invent/ develop Drugs ( medicines/pharmaceuticals not LSD, crack ect). To do that you kind of need to know how they interact with the body, so you kinda need to know how the body works on an atomic level and as a whole interrelated thing. Part of my degrees and training after university were related to those sorts of things. You know things like how enzymes work, how the bodies immune system works, physiology ect. The drug metabolism refers to how the body breaks down drugs ect. An example would be how cigarette tar is oxidised by enzymes in the body to cause carcinogens. I don't really do lab tech stuff, but I'm sure that my lab tech Maureen would like the title to make her feel more important. Yes I quit making drugs about ten years ago as I didn't get a good deal of satisfaction out of working for big Pharma.

    Giving boys the HPV vaccine I thought would have been pretty obvious. Its a virus. It can cause throat cancer. (viruses are effectively little bits of danDNA/RNA that are very good at getting in the cell and replicating. Some viruses when replicating damage the cell and cause cancer.) Boys have it in their throats they get cancer of the throat. How does a Virus get from a vagina/cervix to a young mans throat I hear you ask? Well I will leave that up to your imagination. Sorry that is my sarcasm coming out. You are correct boys don't have cervixes. But the assumption that HPV only causes cervical cancer is a little erroneous I believe.


    "If one vaccine is questionable surely blinkers need to come off as it casts a shadow on others and UNBIASED research needs conducted."

    this is probably your biggest flaw in thinking.

    If one police officer is bent does that make them all? If one white person is a terrorist does that make them all?

    I won't give you peer review research bit if you want to see what a decent vaccination programme can do just google measles, polio, tetanus and mumps. We don't see those deseases in the western world much ( although they are making a comeback and I wonder why).

    "I would also expect any self respecting scientist to refute with critical research and analysis of evidenced based clinical trials not juvenile cries of "pseudo science""

    I read the report you posted up above I have a couple of comments.

    Firstly instead of saying the number of cases rose from 4 to 28 the report posts it as a %790 increase. This is because a %790 increase sounds a lot scarier that say a rise from 4 to 28. This is a classic example of using numbers to misrepresent.

    In a population of approximately 2 million cases ( if I read the report correctly) then the number of people with adverse reactions increased from 4 to 27. Doesn't sound quite so scary now does it. Like I said pseudo science. it would be equally accurate to say over 99.99% of people had no adverse reaction.

    In the fine detail of the report link you posted under the graph above it says 1 person committed suicide on the vaccination and three people committed suicide on the placebo I'm surprised the drug manufacturers don't say look" a 300% increase of not taking your own life" on the label.


    I'm not sure how I feel about the government withholding money from people who don't vaccinate. I have not really thought about it.

    I do know how I feel about vaccinations, in my ( clearly poorly) researched opinion they work.

    Now the sad part, in a population the size of the earth, someone somewhere is going to be adversely affected by a vaccination. A lot more people would be adversely affected by the decease it is protecting against. It's a simple case of numbers. As a parent I picked the biggest risk of harm to my children and went to eliminate it. Then again i'm a jumped up lab tech and what would my informed opinion really be worth?
     
  8. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    On the photonic level cancer begins with a lack of light ...
     
  9. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    Part of the problem nickybaby is that quantum science research is showing that much of our understanding of physics and chemistry is based on a false paradigm so "kinda knowing" how things work isnt really good enough anymore ...
     
  10. nickybaby

    nickybaby Member Silver Stacker

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    must not feed the troll.....
     
  11. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    must not feed the ego ...
     
  12. col0016

    col0016 Active Member

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    Stay strong bro, it can be hard to admit that others know more about something than you do, but you are stronger than your ego :)
     
  13. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    Its not that col, i do not regret spending more than a dozen years in medical science ... i do not regret studying and learning what i thought was unchallengingly true ... science is not a qualification or degree ... science is not about the ego and status or funding ... science is not about establishing an agenda or theory and cobbling data to support it ... science is a process of discovery and validation ... new frontiers are opening up that will overturn much of what we know or think we know ... science is about the quest for the truth above all ... and having the courage to abandon established ideas and to embrace new ones that will serve our species properly ...
     
  14. Agnostic

    Agnostic Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Well said systematic.

    That is what I took the most from my science degree - the process of discovering, challenging and updating knowledge. pushing out further the boundary of the known.
     
  15. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Maybe "kinda knowing" is the best we can ever do since all scientific theories are really just descriptions and abstractions of reality rather than reality itself. In fact, maybe we can never be confident in having discovered an ultimate theory of everything if Godel's incompleteness theorems apply to our investigations into the nature of reality.
     
  16. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  17. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    Maybe ... and yet it is our duty to continue on our journey of discovery wherever it may lead without fear or favour ...

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R30YKfEuyo0[/youtube]
     
  18. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Ron Paul is a pro-lifer, I don't know much about the specifics his platform, but I'd say it involves government coercion.

    I'm curious about the motive behind Senator Leyonhjelm's support of the government legislation. I'd say it has more to do with breaking the welfare mentality as opposed to enforced vaccinations.
     
  19. col0016

    col0016 Active Member

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    He said he supports cutting welfare and this is one way to do it. He also said that since the government is giving away money they're welcome to attach strings to it.
     
  20. nickybaby

    nickybaby Member Silver Stacker

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    Fully agree.

    Then again what is science. It is an empirical model of the universe. When we find something that challenges our view of that model and we change the model. ( gravity , matter and the solar systems are perfect examples of this). I cannot prove anything in science, Nobody can, however I also cannot disprove our current models of science.

    systematic wrote:
    Part of the problem nickybaby is that quantum science research is showing that much of our understanding of physics and chemistry is based on a false paradigm so "kinda knowing" how things work isn't really good enough anymore ...


    I do not see the relevence of quantum uncertainty to our frame of reference, specifically with regards to the chemistry of medicine and immunisation.

    Take the theory of gravity for example.

    Newtons law of gravity works very well for things we can see and touch and explains what we experience on a day to day basis.

    It cannot explain the movement of Mercury around the sun.

    Einstein's theories of relativity explains gravity much better. ( and can explain the movement of mercury around the sun)

    However, if you want to jump out of an air plane at 30,000 feet without a parachute either law will fully explain the very short effect you are about to experience.

    ( however if you want to discuss Newtonian vs Einsteinian physics this forum is probably not the place)



    Whilst I may not know the exact position and energy of an atom in a virus and I may not be able to fully describe the energy level of the electron shells in an atom and I may not be able to say what exactly mass is made up of these things are not relevant, ( in my opinion) on our ability to overcome disease. If I inject you with a vial of HIV, and you do not have some unknown immunity to it, you will be HIV positive.

    Whilst I agree that some paradigms in Physics will probably be re-written ( unlike you I cannot see the future and so will not predict they will change) I am not so sure about chemistry.
     

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