Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by whay, Feb 29, 2020.
in search of water of life, found black gun powder
Agree about falsifiability and will look at the documentary where I get a chance
You as someone adept with the scientific method must see that there is also quite recent evidence (JAMA) that concluded in their study there was no objective difference between it and placebo, for sepsis anyway.
As for Pauling, if it was you that posted about him, what do you say about the findings by the Mayo clinic? Your field is as an expert in research methodology. So why push Pauling when 3 subsequent trials by Mayo did not reproduce his findings?
I’ve read about some miracle findings with vitamin C - this seems to be a particular interest for you. You know as well as I do that case reports are often a start point.
I’m not here to have a pissing contest. You win.
There is evidence for vitamin C (case reports) but where is the big trial? You may know.
When time I will hopefully look. One thing that I am interested in with this is...do the sickest see the benefit?
Your quotes are in Dr Saul’s site. Yet he even claims:
“I remind everyone that a mere 200 mg of vitamin C/day resulted in an 80% decrease in deaths among severely ill, hospitalized respiratory disease patients”
(Ie about 2-3 times recommended daily intake)
was a response to
"my choices for immunity and healing now and even before we heard of COVID-19 are
Liposomal Vitamin C. Liposomal vitamins are claimed to be absorbed more readily by the body. I have read that tests have shown that Liposomal vitamins can give Vit C levels in the body of about twice that of which regular Vit C can give. ..."
Powder vitamin C has a longer shelf life than Liposomal Vitamin C but the latter can raise vitamin C concentration in the blood to much higher levels and this is critical if you are fighting infection. This is why sodl's choice is sound. In a SHTF situation the private clinics that administer IV vitamin C would be maxed, the hospitals will not administer IV vitamin C and you are on your own.
Liposomal Vitamin C is encapsulated to survive the digestive system and make it to the blood in much higher concentration than oral crystalline/powder vitamin C. Powder vitamin C, even in mega doses, cannot raise the concentration in the blood sufficiently to deal with a serious infections.
Moreover powder vitamin C has a half-life of just 30 minutes in serum. That means that whatever dose you take, it is almost all gone within 4 hours and with that goes any preventative protection. Liposomal Vitamin C lasts much longer - 8 hours.
The shelf life of Liposomal vitamin C is about a year - it is not an issue for families that use both forms regularly for prevention and treatment.
@Pendragon thanks for your input mate. I have a few questions. Thanks in advance for any response.
What are your thoughts re using an ultrasonic nebuliser to administer liquid Vitamin C or other liquid vitamins ? Just thinking the nebuliser would give an improved delivery system for vitamins to the blood via the lungs ........ some folks also use the nebuliser to administer colloidal/ionic silver solution.
I assume a 3000mg/day 24 hr slow release vitamin C would give better results than a 3000mg/day regular vitamin C ?
I have heard that the active ingredient in Chaga mushrooms (harvested from Birch trees) aids in immunity and is naturally encapsulated and survives the digestive system ......... do you have any knowledge or thoughts re Chaga ?
Also do you have any knowledge of Colloidal/Ionic Rhodium and/or Iridium as a health/immunity booster ? I have read previously that tests on pigs and calves found the dried weight of the brains have measured 2.5% Rh and 2.5% Ir content. Rh and Ir were noted in the thymus also. So possibly depleted levels of Rh/Ir in the brain and/or thymus can weaken our immunity.
Another study, published in JAMA this year, actually an Australian study, failed to find any difference in high dose IV vitamin C/B1 combination in septic shock
Question Does treatment with vitamin C, hydrocortisone, and thiamine lead to a more rapid resolution of septic shock compared with hydrocortisone alone?
Results Among 216 patients who were randomized, 211 provided consent and completed the primary outcome measurement (mean age, 61.7 years [SD, 15.0]; 133 men [63%]). Time alive and vasopressor free up to day 7 was 122.1 hours (interquartile range [IQR], 76.3-145.4 hours) in the intervention group and 124.6 hours (IQR, 82.1-147.0 hours) in the control group; the median of all paired differences was –0.6 hours (95% CI, –8.3 to 7.2 hours; P = .83). Of 10 prespecified secondary outcomes, 9 showed no statistically significant difference. Ninety-day mortality was 30/105 (28.6%) in the intervention group and 25/102 (24.5%) in the control group (hazard ratio, 1.18; 95% CI, 0.69-2.00). No serious adverse events were reported.
Findings In this randomized clinical trial that included 216 patients with septic shock, treatment with intravenous vitamin C, hydrocortisone, and thiamine, compared with intravenous hydrocortisone alone, did not significantly improve the duration of time alive and free of vasopressor administration over 7 days (122.1 hours vs 124.6 hours, respectively).
Pendragon, do you have anything substantial beyond case reports? While they are very interesting, is there anything more solid?
Hydrogen Peroxide (apart from being a bleaching agent) is also an alternative disinfectant and cheap.
Breaking News from China: Shanghai Government Officially Recommends Vitamin C for COVID-19
(OMNS Mar 3, 2020) The government of Shanghai recommends to physicians to treat COVID-19 with high dose intravenous vitamin C. Dosage recommendations vary with severity of illness, from 50 to 200 milligrams per kilogram body weight per day.
That translates to a dose of 4 to 16 grams for an adult.
Dr. Atsuo Yanagisawa, president of the Tokyo-based Japanese College of Intravenous Therapy, says that intravenous vitamin C is at least ten times more powerful than if taken orally. He says, "Intravenous vitamin C is a safe, effective, and broad-spectrum antiviral."
Click here for the Government Announcement and Protocol.
Within hours of this announcement Liposomal Vitamin C - the only form that individuals can self administer to increase concentration of vitamin C in the blood started to disappear from the market. Most suppliers are now showing 'out of stock' or asking high prices.
It took me an hour to find a supplier operating from New Zealand and they put a severe quantity limit on purchases. It baffles me how people are preparing for COVID-19 with toilet paper!
I'm a little puzzled here.
I went looking to buy some Liposomal Vitamin C, and came
I've always found plain old Vit C helpful , so is that placebo or does it work?
Should I be looking for Liposomal Vitamin C, or will generic Vit C do?
My strategy (when the pandemic is evident!!) is to keep well fortified with C , B and D vitamins, lots of good healthy clean food, allied with fastidious hand washing and avoiding crowds.
Sorry for the delayed response. I have no knowledge about the usefulness of the administration of Vitamin C with ultrasonic nebuliser or Colloidal/Ionic Rhodium or Iridium as a health/immunity booster or Chaga mushrooms .
Yes slow release vitamin C is better in theory - but if I was battling the onset of an infection I would need large doses and so I would use only pure Ascorbic Acid powder to avoid fillers, color, flavors and other contaminants in tablets.
Yes I know of the use of a nebuliser with collidal silver and I have used one with 3% hydrogen peroxide as an adjunct. I would also inhale the vapour of water boiled with fresh black seed oil ( Nigella sativa ). It reduces pro-inflammatory Cytokines and increases anti-inflammatory Cytokines.
From what I can see so far, the contemporary interest in high dose vitC was renewed with the “Marik cocktail” from this paper:
“A retrospective before-after study”
Hydrocortisone, Vitamin C, and Thiamine for the Treatment of Severe Sepsis and Septic Shock
In this retrospective before-after clinical study, we compared the outcome and clinical course of consecutive septic patients treated with intravenous vitamin C, hydrocortisone, and thiamine during a 7-month period (treatment group) with a control group treated in our ICU during the preceding 7 months. The primary outcome was hospital survival. A propensity score was generated to adjust the primary outcome.
There were 47 patients in both treatment and control groups, with no significant differences in baseline characteristics between the two groups. The hospital mortality was 8.5% (4 of 47) in the treatment group compared with 40.4% (19 of 47) in the control group (P < .001). The propensity adjusted odds of mortality in the patients treated with the vitamin C protocol was 0.13 (95% CI, 0.04-0.48; P = .002). The Sepsis-Related Organ Failure Assessment score decreased in all patients in the treatment group, with none developing progressive organ failure. All patients in the treatment group were weaned off vasopressors, a mean of 18.3 ± 9.8 h after starting treatment with the vitamin C protocol. The mean duration of vasopressor use was 54.9 ± 28.4 h in the control group (P < .001).
Our results suggest that the early use of intravenous vitamin C, together with corticosteroids and thiamine, are effective in preventing progressive organ dysfunction, including acute kidney injury, and in reducing the mortality of patients with severe sepsis and septic shock. Additional studies are required to confirm these preliminary findings.
The studies quotes earlier are prospective designs to try to reproduce those findings and as you see, both of those published in JAMA were not successful in reproducing the primary end points.
Here’s a link to studies on vitamin C via the clinical trials search engine, filtered for those dealing with ARDS and acute lung injury
I’m finding it hard to find hard evidence at a trial level to support routine use of vitamin C in the way that Pendragon has promoted. I see Pendragon also advocates nebulised nigella seed oil. Not disparaging it, but the general thread of things is slanted to “natural”.
Hence the thread I suppose
Whether megadose vitamin C does jot is going to come out in the wash inevitably with this virus, should it take a feverish pitch in hospitals around the world, because it will be met with equally feverish natural remedy advocates.
Don’t get me wrong, there is vitamin C depletion in critical illness, but as pointed out elsewhere (described as the “normalisation fallacy”) correcting a number does not always give the results intended. The reason is something underlying the number is responsible.
A simple analogy is bleeding. The haemoglobin goes down. You can load up on iron, vitamin C and packed red blood cell transfusions, but if the source of the bleeding is a leaky vessel which needs repair, you are treating a number.
What you want is a well thought out trial design to demonstrate whether vitamin C in big doses does anything versus placebo, intravenously administered or by whatever oral delivery system is considered to be of good merit.
The trials I’ve seen so far are not favourable in the primary end points. (Although, all cause mortality was reduced in one trial with P=0.1 as a secondary endpoint)
Pendragon, you are the strong advocate here. What is the best level of evidence? Anything more than case reports at this stage (some of which are very interesting)?
For anyone interested in learning about the many health benefits derived from vitamin C see link below to the Vitamin C foundation.
During their training medical practitioners are deliberately not taught about the real health benefits of Vitamin C and other natural/alternative remedies. The medical and pharmaceutical industry is big business controlled by the powers that be and do not want competition so they discredit and/or get rid of competition any way they see fit including commissioning and paying bought and paid for persons/organisations for fake reports ,studies and statistics or even liquidating outspoken individuals from time to time . The powers that be also own/control the governments and the main stream media and therefore control what info the public receives or does not receive.
What evidence do you have to say medical practitioners are deliberately not taught about vitamin C “and other natural/alternative remedies”?
This is a outlier viewpoint and pretty weird. It’s like those abysmal ads that infest web pages that say “doctors are so angry about this” (picture of bizarre exotic fruit or fungus).
I think this idea about “competition” is pure projection. Doctors don’t give a hoot and in fact what you’ll find is they will generally offer a cheaper option if that exists.
What they generally won’t do is risk their necks (actually yours and thus theirs) on a kooky poorly evidence based natural treatment for something serious.
If there was any conspiracy angle it would be the legal profession, for the medicolegal implications of a treatment decision is where the buck stops, right after an adverse outcome.
Most of these vitamin Q cheerleaders don’t really get to carry the can enough for malfeasance and what that means in reality is their opinion must be viewed sceptically, until there is strong conventional evidence that there is anything in it.
This Dr Saul quoted earlier is from what I can see, not a medical practitioner, but a huge vitamin pusher. Pendragon’s miracle stories seem to all roost home with this advocate.
What I’m asking you people is where is the strong evidence? Maybe it is in the pipeline. If anyone, you would surely be the ones to know.
Here’s the latest all natural prevention technology, fresh from India
A bizarre video shows people taking cow dung bath to sanitise themselves from coronavirus infections in the south Indian state of Karnataka.
The incident took place at Hiriyur town of Chitradurga district on February 20, 2020.
"The body will be free of all bacteria and viruses if we take cow dung bath in once a month“
That video is a must watch
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