The myth of the gender pay gap

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by mmm....shiney!, May 21, 2018.

  1. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Having been inspired by Hans Rosling's dedication to eradicating gap mentality, I decided to try my hand at the perceived gender pay gap in Australia.

    I used data from https://profile.id.com.au/australia/individual-income?Sex=2 to create a graph that showed the weekly individual gross incomes of both males and females aged 15 years or more for 2016.

    The result? As you can see women are more represented in the lower income levels whilst men are in the higher income levels, but the most telling point from the data is that there is no gap, just a massive overlap. The vast majority of men and women earn the same.

    income.jpg

    The existence of a gender pay gap is a myth. A myth designed and perpetuated by special interest groups intent upon enhancing their values at the expense of others.
     
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  2. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Government and education pay scales are set, no choice but to get the same as everyone else at my pay scale.

    Most of my co-workers are female, only about 4% are male. This is because it is low paid, low level office work, there is no risk, not much in the way of educational qualification requirements, zero physical fitness required and no creativity at all. It is drudge work. However unlike the other 96% of my co-workers, I look after eight different groups of students, most only look after one or two groups. Most also work in teams and share the additional workload, I work alone. And most are located within Hospital grounds where they are given an office. I am located in an education centre, which I manage. My manager is offsite, so I take care of all his business at the local level.

    But I still get the same pay, so that is fair!

    I get to walk to work, I have a view of Moreton Bay from my office window, I get to work in the same site as my wife and I get a private underground car park, which is why I put up with it.
     
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  3. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    So if I work for an hour and my female friend works for 1.5 hours and we both receive $30, that's equal pay?
     
  4. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That is possibly the dumbest question I’ve ever seen.

    What’s your point?

    Let me make it easier for you.

    1. Do all women earn less than all men? Why?
    2. Do some women earn more than some men? Why?
    3. Do some women earn less than some men? Why?
    4. Do some women earn less than other women? Why?
     
  5. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Your graph simply shows income bands by gender.

    It doesn't show adjusted/unadjusted incomes which include some kinda important factors like whether any given woman receives the same pay as any given man for doing the same job.

    If you don't include other factors to better compare apples to apples then you may as well say Wendy gets $30 for 1.5 hours work, Mike gets $30 for 1 hours work and that's fair because they both took home the same amount.
     
  6. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    My graph shows that the vast majority of men and women earn the same income. My graph shows that some men earn more than women. My graph shows that some women earn more than men. My graph shows that there is no gap. My graph instead shows there is a range of incomes. Simple.

    Now if you want to adjust incomes in order to prove some point that justifies forcing whatever values you hold onto others then go ahead and make your own graph*. Or you could simply throw darts at a board instead like our central planners and special interest groups do. If you don't get the numbers you want then just pluck 'em and chuck 'em again. LMAO

    Please go ahead and create a graph that displays the discrepancies between men and women who do the same job while you're at it. We can then have a chat about why maybe a 19 yo female hooker would earn more than a 65 yo male prostitute for giving the same 12 minute blowjob.

    * hint, just use averages. Averages always exaggerate gaps.

     
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  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Actually my favourite topic around gender discrimination and income is not blow jobs but sports, so I’d rather discuss that.
     
  8. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't have to, the ATO does this every year already. You can get the data here: https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Taxation-statistics/

    There are indeed gaps between what women and men earn for doing the same job. For example:

    From: https://www.accountantsdaily.com.au...8-gender-pay-disparity-persists-in-accounting
     
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  9. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    So your next task is to explain why. Remember the 19 yo hooker?

    Edit to add: I see you took my advice and cited statistics based on averages. Lol
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  10. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Women athlete get paid less because it is a smaller market generally.
    Prize money on offer is directly related to how many people watch the sport in question and in 99.99% the pinnacle is men's version.

    If women wants equal prize money it is up to the association to pitch it to broadcasters just like Ladies Tennis.
    Nothing stopping Women Rugby pitching the idea, but it is also fair for the broadcaster to say show me a million viewers a week.

    So as long as no women competing in the same sport class is paid less, there is no issue.

    Who won the last Olympic Women 100m?
    Who won the last Olympic Men 100m?

    Now if a women beat Hussein Bolt in the last Olympics, we would all know and she would be getting paid tens of millions by every sponsor.
     
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  11. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Explain to me why the ratio of deaths in the workplace in Australia is 93 percent men and 7 percent women (and the majority of that seven percent are motor vehicle accidents) and you have just pretty much explained the mythical “gender pay gap’.
     
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  12. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I think this old case is closed. There is no unfair pay gap.

    Btw a lot of men would rather stay home, look after the kids and go to cafes for lunch with the guys. But you don’t hear men complain there is an unfair conspiracy why more women stay home. Pros and cons on both sides.
     
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  13. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Well-Known Member

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    Sounds perfect. Are you employing at the moment jislizard?
     
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  14. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Female pro-surfers earn on average more than men, which is surprising. Maybe because there are fewer women so there are less low income surfers to skew the scores or maybe it's because some of the woomen look good in bikini and photo shoots so they attract heaps of sponsorship.

    But you're right, earnings should reflect market demand, not the political whims of sociopaths. I suspect it's a feminist strategy. You know the drill, pay gaps are entrenched in every economic system and are a manifestation of the deliberately constructed means by which men establish domination over women blah blah blah blah and all that crap.

    Here's a list of 80 jobs where women earn more than men. It's based on average earnings and it's from the ABC so the statists on this forum should love it:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-27/women-earn-more-than-men-in-just-80-occupations/9700162
     
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  15. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Well, yay for the 18 female goat farmers who have shattered the glass ceiling in their caprine endeavors.

    Seriously, look at that list and note the average incomes for those jobs where women earn more than men. They're not huge. Now look at the types of jobs and where the opportunities for career advancement might be. If you're a female bookkeeper earning a whopping $6k more than your male peers, you can study for three years to become an accountant...and end up earning $37k less than your male peers.

    What role does a receptionist - general woman up-skill herself for that would boost her income from $36k and which is roughly equal to her male peers? A short order cook? A clerk? A chemist shop assistant?

    I mean, well done to the 6 state governors, 23 futures traders, 11 gymnasts and 4 bulldozer operators who are women for doing their jobs well enough to be earning more than the average median wage (woo!), but it doesn't seem like there's a huge number of those jobs available for women to progress their careers and get ahead in.
     
  16. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Nice fallacy.

    From the WGEA on the the gender pay gap:

    https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/gender-pay-gap-statistics.pdf

    5 identified factors that contribute to why some men earn more than some women and the glass ceiling is only one of them. And I'll just repeat what they wrote again: "does not compare like roles".

    So Big A.D. your question is moot.

    Now mind you, the Workplace Gender Equality Agency is the climate change agency of the Commonwealth government's employment department, so i'm a bit hesitant to quote them, but when even they acknowledge that the gender pay gap doesn't compare like roles then you really do have to sit up and take notice of that.

    It's worth repeating just once more: "does not compare like roles".


    oh-my-god.gif
     
  17. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Yeah, I went one step further and compared like-for-like roles.

    If you go back to the broad measurements used by the WGEA, women are still getting a raw deal for the reasons they list, which you can see in the real life examples I provided.
     
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  18. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Depends on the job. I used to pick strawberries. I got paid by the number of strawberries I picked. If I picked a lot of strawberries in an hour then I got a lot of money (relatively).

    If it took a female friend 1.5 hours to pick the same amount then yes, it would be equal pay. If she only took half an hour to pick the same number of strawberries it would also be equal pay.

    The pay was based on merit, not some idea that everyone deserves the same amount of money regardless of how much effort they put in.

    However this is all theoretical because there were never any women in the fields picking strawberries with us.

    You were constantly bending over, your clothes would be saturated with rotten strawberries, your back ached, it was either raining or sunny, neither was much fun as there was no cover. There were no toilets and no where to get a drink of water. For some reason that job did not appeal to women. It was pretty much all men, mostly immigrants, travelers and school leavers.


    Not defending that graph though, no labels on the axes, no units on the x-axis. Am I meant to guess what the big numbers refer to?
     
  19. serial

    serial Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't think that people are getting the point. If women are cheaper to employ to do the same job at the same level of expertise and quality as men then why wouldnt people only employ women? Because there is a huge number of other factors in play that are not taken into account when you simply look at average incomes of women vs men.
    Factors such as experience, ability, qualifications, attitude, fidelity etc.
    Now if you drill down into issues such as
    Qualifications - how many females are targeting obtaining qualifications in high paying fields such as oil and gas, engineering, medical sciences, business management vs low paying fields such as social sciences, nursing, teaching etc
    Experience- how likely is it for females to take significant amounts of time of from their career for personal reasons such as starting a family heavily affecting their work history.
    Ability - this is a controversial issue, female IQ tends to be clustered around the median where as male iq tends to seek the extreme so you are more likely to find ultra high achievers and ultra low in males versus a more average level of scholarly achievement in females. i have read studies about this and experienced the same in life but as always there are exceptions.
    Attitude- men are naturally more aggressive and driven where as females tend to be more collaborative and happy to settle into a grove. Both these attitudes have positive and negative aspects but in a workplace environment you need to aggressively pursue you development and promotion to higher paying jobs so men are better suited to this. Again I can not stress enough that there are exceptions to this rule, it is a generalisation
    Fidelity-again we examine the general priorities that a female has versus a male. Men are geared to provide, female to create/protect. This means men are more likely to neglect family to prioritize work whereas mothers will generally do what's best for the family and work will always be 2nd fiddle.

    Now i want to stress that this is all general and there are always exceptions to the rules but it is in this environment that females, on average will earn less than men in their lifetime. That doesn't mean that the world is a sexist place but rather that men and women are different and those differences affect how they live and work currently leading to a flawed perception that women are less valued by our society simply because they earn less. Nothing is further from the truth and this fixation on income being a decider of value is toxic.
    I am also a stay at home dad who gave up a reasonable income to manage the house hold whilst my highly intelligent, skilled and organised wife continued to pursue her career as she has earns more and has more potential to develop.
    So one could argue that I am doing more to reduce the pay gap than anyone else here by not working while my wife does:p
     
  20. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No you didn't, you just compared the same occupations. The roles in each occupation are diverse,.

    I'd agree with the discrimination and bias based upon gender bit (a long as the roles can be equally performed by either gender).

    However many workers in female dominated industries attract less remuneration because the market doesn't value their work as highly eg looking after a bunch of 3yo's is less valued than high transmission tower maintenance and the pay scale should reflect that, it doesn't have anything to do with raw deals. As far as a lack of workplace flexibility this usually relates to kids, no one compels couples to have kids so any inconvenience that raising a family has on the capacity of women to earn money has nothing to do with getting a raw deal either. Likewise any unpaid work they choose to do and generally everything else in the world (and on that list) that means women (and men) have to choose between a job or all the other needs/wants that compete for their interests and devotion.
     

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