The morality of debt

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by mmm....shiney!, Oct 24, 2012.

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  1. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It seems a number of members believe that debt is bad or immoral.

    I don't believe debt is either bad or immoral (in fact I'm not sure if debt can be described as either moral or immoral) but for the sake of this argument I'll state that debt is moral.

    Why? Because it enables consumers, investors or business minded people to:

    - increase their earning capacity or to embark on new projects.

    - save and then use those savings as evidence to a lender that they have the capacity to repay a loan at interest.

    - encourage entrepreneurship and the manufacture of new, more efficient or cheaper products.

    - better their life circumstance.

    - loan their excess savings and earn a reward.

    These were just a few ideas off the top of my head, I'm late for work. Please add some more, or debate them.
     
  2. Eureka Moments

    Eureka Moments Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  3. systematic

    systematic Well-Known Member

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    +1
     
  4. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Use it as leverage to trade paper silver against JPMorgue and win some back for the good guys! Ironic, huh? :D
     
  5. hem9

    hem9 Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Debt is neither good or bad, it is a tool to either be used or abused.
     
  6. Clawhammer

    Clawhammer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Saving is worse.... hoarding...gluttony...withholding from the masses...selfishness


    it's great :D
     
  7. renovator

    renovator Well-Known Member

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    I dont know how you can live with yourself taking all those notes out of circulation ..... :cool:
     
  8. renovator

    renovator Well-Known Member

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    That about sums it up ....lock the thread :p:
     
  9. REDBACK

    REDBACK Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    An ironic argument if you start viewing it outside the realm of the recent invention of money.

    I am sure stone age man incurred a burden of debt.
    Hunters and Gatherers shared their kills/Tubers with other tribal members in the unspoken expectation that the act would be repaid in kind when they came up short.

    Village farming families in communal settings used the same burden of debt to ensure survival.

    Debt is age old and part of our tribal custom wether in the form of food,shells,exchanging of labour skills within differing time frames the concept has always been used in one form or another.

    Moving to money with an ever growing population was in effect inevitable.

    Thank god for Debt otherwise i would be in more debt!!

    REDBACK
     
  10. Clawhammer

    Clawhammer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    LOL :D
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Debt is bad in the case of say, America. 16trillion... That's blatantly bad.
     
  12. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  13. hawkeye

    hawkeye New Member Silver Stacker

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    Bonds aren't fine because the people choosing to get into debt are not the ones who will have to pay it off. They aren't responsible for their decisions.

    You can choose to borrow money. You can't impose a debt burden on any other person or group of people. That's immoral and unethical.

    There's a reason why they are called bonds.

    EDIT: clarification.
     
  14. willrocks

    willrocks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I think some people have a problem with most (modern-day) debt because for every debt created new currency comes into existence which erodes the value of everyone else's currency. This can be attributed to factional reserve banking and the banker's insane reserve ratios (or in some cases the lack of).

    My opinion is debt is for slaves, and use of debt enables bankers to continue controlling the direction and flow of society. They do this by deciding what businesses types or asset classes they will 'loan' (create) money for.
     
  15. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Sorry, I meant company bonds like woolies or BHP.
     
  16. hawkeye

    hawkeye New Member Silver Stacker

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    You know I'm not even sure about them to tbh because it's kind of the same principle. The board may borrow money and spend it and the results end up enhancing their salaries/bonuses. They move on. Company employees and shareholders left with the burden of the debt.

    But I think that gets into how the corporation is structured, limited liability and all that which is another conversation really.
     
  17. registered nutcase

    registered nutcase New Member

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    I agree with the exception of business loans. I feel they are good for the greater economy. Usually the expansion becuase of the loan means more people are employed and the economy as a whole is staying equal.
     
  18. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    This is a conversation best served FTF with tea and coffee. As effectively said in the longer posts I linked to, for me, I (currently) come from the Austrian economics / Libertarian perspective and the root of so many immoral acts and injustice is the lack of sound money (as soooo many stackers know). For me debt itself is not wrong per se (except govt debt, but govt itself is wrong) it's debt based on unsound money. People who know this and choose to use & encourage the system to perpetuate is one level of "wrongness", actively encouraging others when we can see so many cracks in the dam (damn?) wall is a whole extra dimension of wrongness. Stacking (even if bitcoins etc), trying to use sound money based principles and encouraging others to do the same is what we should be doing.

    This position may seem wishy washy to some "hardliners" but I am confident that this position is a minimum and proper FTF debate over coffee (with either side of this issue) will only move me towards the "hardliners" rather than back to encouraging the use of the broken system.
     
  19. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    If you could be stuffed sifting through the "inflation" thread, willrocks and I pointed out that there are lots of good methods that businesses use everyday to raise capital (starting on page 4 or 5 , I think).
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't think I have the energy to go through another one of these threads.

    I think others have already covered it well.

    The only caveat I'll add is the usage of debt by those who benefit from it will never been seen as an immoral act because of the personal bias involved.

    Even the Bernank thinks he's a swell guy at the end of the day.

    There's a very grey area between 'morally good' and corrupt when it comes to using debt.

    But in order to properly discuss morality in debt, you have to honestly understand what debt is.

    People here have said it's just a tool or worse, believe that debt is the only means to wealth creation.

    That's half the problem IMHO, the perception of what debt really is.

    Debt doesn't CREATE wealth, it transfers ownership of it.

    Until people are on the same page concerning the fundamentals here, then any discussion on the rest is moot.
     
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