The Gubmint owns your gold

Discussion in 'General Precious Metals Discussion' started by Yippe-Ki-Ya, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but FRB would have to be illegal in the first place for FRB to be a fraud....without the illegality it's simply a matter of bad money chasing bad money. No bank will chose to go 100% backed..... If they would they could have done it already....
     
  2. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    It seems to me, that with 80 tons of gold on hand at the RBA, and the real possibility that a Gold Standard may in fact come to pass, that the RBA should be accumulating Australia's production NOW!

    Even on the quiet, without actually passing any mandating legislation, they should be buying 'at the mine gate' or even via the Perth Mint. depending on the miners current contracts of course. Far better than waiting until Gold is US$10,000 an ounce. And just one year of OZ production plus current stocks would give them at best, 320 tons of the stuff, and 560 tons in 2 years.

    If that logic is good enough or China and Russia etc, I would not dispute it.

    JMO
     
  3. willrocks

    willrocks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Maybe that's what Perth mint storage is for?
     
  4. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    OC - I agree with you (unfortunately members like Glen Stevens don't).

    Lovey80, all the (valid) questions you've raised have been discussed extensively in the various papers/books on sound money. It sounds like you haven't looked at these (not surprising as they're just a handful out of the thousands of great papers out there) so it is probably simpler for us both if you read some first.
     
  5. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Aargghh Confiscation risk! :lol:
     
  6. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    bordsilver,

    Somehow, I have little confidence in either the RBA or Treasury. From the top to the next dozen under them.
     
  7. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    :lol: And you're a member on THIS forum :lol:
     
  8. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    willrocks,

    I am no expert on the Perth Mint, but would they have 240/560 tons+ of gold in their vaults? And who would have ownership of it?

    Who owns the Perth Mint? WA government or the Federal government or........?
     
  9. Mel427

    Mel427 New Member

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    Maybe my logic is wrong but I don't see gold confiscation if you are returning to a gold standard. Why go door to door to steal your milk (gold), when it's cheaper and easier to steal the whole cow (mine). Confiscation of PM's only makes sense if you are trying to force people to use only your fiat. Just my $.02
     
  10. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It depends on how fast you want physical gold. As someone earlier pointed out, given the constitution and existing confiscation laws that Yippe started with it'll probably be logistically simpler and quicker grabbing whatever's around rather than negotiating with the many mining companies about the value of each and every one. Although different circumstances, the Cash for closure negotiations that went on for a long time (and failed) is a contemporary parallel.

    Besides which the RBA doesn't want to own and operate mines. Not really one of their strong points and it'll just turn to crap like most SOE's.

    Edit: As per Hawkeye's earlier comment, IF we moved to true bottom-up sound money then confiscation is completely unnecessary but given sound money has not existed anywhere that I know of for at least 1,000 years I think there is a much higher chance of going through a centrally-planned intermediate currency (which is where I have the confiscation fears as mentioned before).
     
  11. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    mel427,


    Your Constitution is much the same as ours, in fact we copied a lot of it to compose ours.

    If the US or Australian governments nationalizes a gold mining company, they have to pay full market value. They then have to run the mine and pay the costs of extracting the stuff. Yes, they can do that and their cost per ounce would be a lot less, but the capital investment cost would be a lot more. And they would carry the risk of the reserves being less than expected.

    Nevertheless, the actual total of gold at the mine gate is going to be a LOT more than in the safe custody vaults, or backyards of the owners.

    JMO
     
  12. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Oops, sorry Mel I didn't realise you were from the US and was mixing you up with someone else here in Oz.

    In your context then it is in everyone's best interests if the US moves first and if they use Murray Rothbard's plan (see earlier link) then no confiscation is actually necessary (assuming the Fed gold is still there ;) ). In our (and the UK's) case, our super smart central bankers sold off most of our stocks so I (currently) think some sort of stock rebuilding will be required.
     
  13. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  14. lucky luke

    lucky luke Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    1. If a gold standard (or any standard) is introduced, the US will either be 100% for the move or 100% against it. The yanks set the whole system up post WW2 (IMF, World Bank, US$ as defacto world currency) when everyone else was on their knees.

    2. If a gold standard was introduced, then by logic those nations with large gold stockpiles put aside should benefit (However, have the days of National Sovereignty long passed in todays world of global governance?)

    3. IF the US has a large gold stockpile as often quoted, then they MAY have a secret plan to instigate or be part of the move to a gold standard in the future BUT.................

    4. IF THE SUPPOSED LARGE STOCKPILE OF GOLD IN THE USA IS IN REALITY A MASSIVE BIT OF US BULLSHIT, THEN THE USA WOULD BE 100% AGAINST ANY MOVE TO A GOLD STANDARD

    Just thinking outside the box a little.................
     
  15. lucky luke

    lucky luke Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Wasn't Gadaffi behind a defacto push to implementing a gold standard in Africa....................
     
  16. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Don't know? Links?
     
  17. lucky luke

    lucky luke Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    re: Gadaffi, Africa and gold. I was following this issue what some time ago (before he and Libya were conveniently destroyed). Just did a search on Mr Google and their are no shortage of links so fill your boots. Here's one though that pops up. I don't vouch for the credibility of the website though there are many others on the same topic

    http://www.spam_removed.com/forum1/message1702677/pg1


    Oh, and for all those who are quick to label those who think outside the box as nutcase conspiracy theorists, I have my tinfoil hat on so I can't hear you.
     
  18. bron suchecki

    bron suchecki Active Member Silver Stacker

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    No we don't have that sort of gold lying around - we aren't a central bank, we are owned by WA government who doesn't have spare cash/reserves to park in gold. Perth Mint Depository hold around $3.5 billion, which is not a lot to the Federal government in the sort of situations we are talking about (FYI RBA's 80t = approx $4.4b, whereas 300t mine output = $16.6b per year).

    Federal govt taking over WA Perth Mint & miner's gold (effectively WA's gold in the ground) just raises secession issues I discuss in http://goldchat.blogspot.com/2008/11/australian-gold-confiscation.html I mean, just look at the drama the super profits tax attracted and the spat over state mining royalties - you think the Federal govt taking over the entire WA gold mining industry will just happen without any political blowback?

    That's why I think inflation taxes + a gold speculator/hoarder tax is much easier.
     
  19. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Thanks Bron. I like that article (plus all the comments back and forth since) and indeed already have it permanently bookmarked after dogmatix linked to it a while ago.

    The catch with your inflation tax etc idea is that is raises fiat into the Commonwealth Treasury NOT gold into the backing of the currency.

    I note that you've referenced Julian Phillips in the comments (who I really need to pay more attention to as he has done some good thinking on this stuff over the years).

    This is the crunch. Even if private purchases and market-based sales are allowed in the near term at some point true confiscation is on the cards and in fact, as you seem to point out a few times, is almost guaranteed to happen "under certain conditions". The "gubmint" can't ignore the very enticing private stocks forever even if they delay the outright confiscation until it is "absolutely necessary".

    The only true way of getting confiscation out of the realm of highly probable to vaguely possible seems to be to do as Hawkeye hopes and skip straight through to a true, bottom-up sound money economy where essentially the common person holds and is willing to use gold (and/or silver etc of course) as currency.

    As I queried in an earlier post (and as you yourself have thought about Bron), a key question is whether Australia as a large net gold exporter (and general commodity producer) is somehow "different" w.r.t. what can be used to back a currency? I generally hate the "Australia is different" line, but when in the realm of physically-backed currency there seems that there may really be a big difference between being a supplier of raw commodities (especially energy and food) compared to a supplier of, say, call centre services, generic retail manufactured goods, or wall street brokerage services etc.
     
  20. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    "Federal govt taking over WA Perth Mint & miner's gold (effectively WA's gold in the ground) just raises secession issues"


    I am confused. Is/has that $3.5 BILLION I in gold been bought, from the miners, by the Perth Mint, and is thus the sole property of the Company? Loss of interest on that investment would be enormous, and I would think dangerous to the Perth Mint itself.

    Flogging it off at a few % above spot is not going to replace that interest. And according to Section 51 (xxxi) the Federal Government CANNOT take it at less that full market vale on the day of confiscation.


    .....and any "Western Stater" who talks about "secession" is NOT an Australian, and would soon be 'Indian' or 'Indonesian' if they did.

    Old "Eastern Stater" Codger!!
     

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