Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by mmm....shiney!, Feb 25, 2015.

  1. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It would not surprise me in the least if Tesla suddenly announced that they’d actually been working on a graphene-lithium battery for ages and were going to start using the technology in all their cars, starting next week.
     
  2. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Quite possibly. He needs to pull a very big rabbit to back up his last spectacle with the truck and the roadster, maybe he does have something up his sleeve.
     
  3. jerrygold

    jerrygold Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Graphene stuff is pretty close, so. They won't last as long though so it presents some new challenges.
     
  4. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    For the past 10 year I've been reading that there is a new ground breaking battery around the corner, I'm still waiting...

    For the past 10 years I've been reading how the amazing graphene is the new super material and will change everything, I'm still waiting...

    For the past 20 years I've been hearing how great carbon fibre is and how much more efficient and stronger it will makes cars, I'm still waiting.

    Something can be better, but unless it can work at scale production and for a reasonable price it will never see mass market.
     
  5. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Cold fusion? ;)
     
  6. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Heck I'll settle for just normal fusion. See what ITER can do, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
     
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  7. dozerz

    dozerz Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  8. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The last paragraph of the linked article:

    “And no, we never suggested this averted a blackout. The point of the story was what Tesla could do. Now, imagine if there was actually a proper market (fast frequency control) for this stuff.“

    If there is a need for a “proper market” (insert government using taxpayer’s money to enhance the profits of private interests) it needs someone to risk their own $$$ to determine whether that market is viable.

    It’s not the government’s role to create that market.
     
  9. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  10. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It also makes a lot of the old plant redundant.

    Normally, when there's a big draw on power an alternator will allow it for a fraction of a second, but at the same time the alternator is physically slowing down the turbine which leads to a drop in frequency. If the frequency drops, the stuff that's drawing the power can suffer serious damage, so a circuit breaker trips instead on the basis that no power is better than iffy power that fries all the appliances in your house.

    That's when the network starts load shedding, eliminating the extra demand that causes the overdraw that causes the frequency drop.

    The way you traditionally try to avoid this from happening is by building a whole other turbine somewhere and keep it running constantly with some of the power just not being used at all. It's the exact opposite of the overdrawn/lower frequency situation: power is under-drawn and therefore has a higher frequency.

    When the main generator's draw goes up and the frequency drops, you tap the backup with the higher frequency and that balances everything out.

    In this case the backup was a coal fired power plant (Gladstone 1) that was basically just sitting there burning coal on the off-chance that Loy Yang would fail and need boosting. SA's big battery jumped in and did Gladstone's job faster than Gladstone can ever do it.

    If you're paying a lot for backup with a 6 second response time and something comes along that can do it in 1/1000ths of that time for the same price or less, you really have to start wondering about all that old, slow, polluting gear you're relying on.
     
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  11. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm confused by your post, as on one hand you're confirming what i said, but also saying the opposite.

    Like i said the battery is a nice addition to a coal or gas plants. It complements it very well and makes the system work better. Battery can't provide constant load power and gas and coal can't have fast reaction time. So together they work great and makes a coal or gas system work better. Yay for coal and gas.
    To say it makes people "wondering about all that old, slow, polluting gear" is silly, because atm there is no other option other then nuclear (I'm pro nuclear).

    I'm still trying to understand why SA paid for a battery system that is used more by other states then in SA?

    Btw does anyone know how the battery is meant to be used and how it's integrated. Info has been very sketchy. Last i heard was the power is used by the ACT, and is mainly used by that french wind farm company. Any official links would be appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  12. jerrygold

    jerrygold Active Member Silver Stacker

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    A couple of nuclear power plants near Uluru could work well for the country after we build a cross country canal. The new type of plants that can't explode. But it is hard to say with their cost whether it can compete with wind and solar, and you also have the anti nuclear people. We only have ~9 hours of darkness over the country as a whole, so fill the top end with solar, and build more wind capacity than is needed and run a couple gas/coal power plants just in case. It is weird as a country how shit our electrical system is, almost seems like a conspiracy by power companies to maintain high prices.

    My advice for anyone is to get off grid as fast as you can, electricity in australia is a joke. I pay ~1200 per quarter currently in the city, thats enough to buy nearly 2KW of solar panels every quarter. In 2 years I could power my house and have a lot of excess with solar during the day even after buying an inverter, after 3-4 years I'd have enough for a decent set of batteries. My farm has solar panels though and is completely off grid.
     
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  13. jerrygold

    jerrygold Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Also the other issue to contend with is electrical companies are going to push for laws which ensure that if a power pole is by your land you will have to pay distribution costs. Just like with water right now, even if you don't use it. Try to find a piece of land that has no electricity access otherwise even if you are completely off grid youll be paying for distribution costs which are around a dollar a day or so.
     
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  14. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    My point is that a lot of our infrastructure is geared towards providing redundancy but uses technology that isn't well suited to that particular task.

    Until now, providing redundancy required building a coal plant a long way away from where people are, stringing up a whole lot of fat cables and keeping the plant running as a "hot spare". Now, it's possible to put a few shipping container sized batteries around the place that can turn on and off instantly to manage the loads.

    To prove that their "unreliable" wind power is no longer a problem because the battery can jump in and plug the sort of gaps that would previously have required a coal plant to be idling away, burning fuel.

    I think the battery kicking in to provide power to the other states is little bit of a "f***k you" to everyone else: that last incident is similar to the one where AEMO cut power to SA which lead to the blackouts. Standing back and watching a coal plant struggle to come online really quickly would be pretty self-righteous, but jumping in and saying "oh here, let me do that for you :)" is really rubbing it in.
     
  15. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Ok i see what you're saying. Not that it makes all gas/coal plants irrelevant, just that it makes additional backup plants irrelevant. Though you will still need some backup plants in case of a major plant failure, as even the biggest battery in the world can only supply constant peak energy for a small amount of time.
     
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  16. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    This will almost definitely happen.
     
  17. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Exactly.

    That said, a lot of those coal and gas plants are nearing the end of their service lives. One of the biggest arguments against renewables has been that "the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't always blow" - and that's perfectly true - but grid scale batteries are proving that those problems can be solved...not to mention that coal fired turbines don't always spin when they're supposed to either. Building a second turbine (and third and forth) is definitely a solution but it might not be the best solution for much longer.
     
  18. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  19. Big A.D.

    Big A.D. Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    From the same article:
    If the government is spending $5 million a year pay for the battery and uses it to save $6 million out of the existing $50 million cost to SA, they're ahead.

    The state government of SA is a customer and Musk can provide a product that saves them money. I really don't see what the problem is. Or is simply doing business with a government somewhere the definition of crony capitalism now?
     
  20. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Suckling the teat of the taxpayer is the very definition of crony-capitalism.

    As I keep saying, if there really was a profit to be made then the SA government should have privatised electrical generation.
     

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