TCM for viral Infections

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by whay, Feb 29, 2020.

  1. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    It’s entirely relevant for a potion claiming to treat “viral pneumonia” to be subjected to the scientific method

    Otherwise, we may as well say beliefs are off limits to discussion. That to me is the world of politics.
     
  2. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Again you dont understand TCM and are looking at it wrong.

    I have a BSc (Bio) too and trust me it took me nearly halfway through my TCM degree to get my head around Eastern medicine concepts as they are worlds apart from western concepts.

    your bias is amusing though...TCM its a potion but western its a medicine? Hows that vaccine coming along?

    Who claimed it treated "viral pneumonia" it would say it is for treating Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior and as such could clear the symptoms of viral pneumonia.
    They are tried and tested formulae and would indeed clear conditions of Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior.
     
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  3. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    The OP claimed it treated viral pneumonia.

    It’s right there.

    As far as Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior, maybe it treats that just fine.

    My issue is whether it treats viral pneumonia. If it does, the evidence should be there. The current standard is double blind randomised placebo controlled trial, usually multi-centre.

    A wild guess would be the only evidence, despite thousands of years of “ancient wisdom”, is there is none in this form.

    It can’t be, for viruses weren’t even identified by sight until well into the 20th century.

    OP is likely syncretic, hybridising Western biological concepts into what is otherwise orthodox Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
  4. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Two worlds collide!
     
  5. 66rounds

    66rounds Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Unfortunately in the real world, the scientific method falls short many times. Chalk it up to the fact that you live in a body constrained by space and time. Some things just work and we can't explain it. There are many "non-Western" forms of medicine and branches of knowledge that are quite useful in our daily lives. I wouldn't risk my life relying on TCM but I wouldn't be shy to give it a go either.
     
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  6. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Traditional medicines have it merits and medicinal plants have been tested extensively, and ALL well known traditional medicines are fully tested for active ingredients, and some that make the grade are used in pharmaceuticals everyday. But vast majority are ruled out for pharmaceutical exploitations because it isn't as good as what is already available.

    Look at ginseng, Ginkgo biloba, Valerian, it has been tested by every pharmaceutical company from USA, China, Korea and Europe and all said it works but there are better pharmaceuticals already in the market.

    Also what Traditional medicine cures are not really miracle but that person would have been cured with modern medicine or maybe even without.

    Simply put... drinking valerian tea help you sleep, taking a sleeping tablet knocks you out
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  7. 66rounds

    66rounds Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The four humors are such an interesting concept, they may in fact hold the key for our contemporary mental health crisis. I am attending a class on them this weekend.
     
  8. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Immediate scepticism because very, very bold claims are made. Look alone at what Li Shizhen says about liquorice - allergies to 72 minerals and 1200 plants are fixed? That requires solid evidence to back them up. It is worth looking at his Materia Medica, but I very much think the standard of belief in the 1500s would be anecdotal evidence.

    This was the whole point of a pivot to evidence based medicine after Archibald Cochrane observed a few of his friends died after he gave them medications of the day for tuberculosis, then from his observations in the POW camp, that many people got better even when you gave them nothing.

    That’s the point of a placebo in a placebo controlled trial. There is a rate of improvement and side effects with a placebo. People will attribute their improvement or symptoms to a placebo (this is well established) but it is just a strong, mistaken belief.

    That form of trial is a modern “mythbuster”. Not perfect (grifters trying to make a buck can twist facts, as they always have), but a useful tool, especially when we really need clear thinking, ie when people could die.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  9. 66rounds

    66rounds Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Idk man, that pilot seems a bit frantic. I don't want to wear that parachute if there's no RCT or Systematic Reviews on their effectiveness!
     
  10. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    @minimilled, you are wasting my time cherry picking with that opening sentence about Li ShenZhen, I could do the same very effectively with a lot of Western medicine not only from 15th century but being used today but to what end?

    Im happy for you just to bask in your ignorance in relation to TCM.

    As for double blind placebo trial - I agree pills/potions/vaccines etc should be tested this way BUT no ethics committee in this day and age is going to allow something like that to occur when lives are at risk as you are suggesting with COV-19...you should well know that.
     
  11. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    It’s ok, no parachute needed, just have a good whiff of Ma Huang and you will fly!
     
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  12. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Do you think TCM herbal remedies, acupuncture, etc should be exempt from the double blind placebo controlled randomised trial?

    I don’t think you do. The reason is - good results make your case.
     
  13. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I STRONGLY feel any pharma/herbal/pills etc should be tested thoroughly within the boundaries set by morals & ethics committee's.

    How do you EFFECTIVELY double blind an acupuncture treatment though...it doesnt work.

    The "gold standard" of trials was invented by pharma for pharma - it works well for popping a pill but not so much for physical medical interventions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  14. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Not bad for a TCM "potion" @minimilled

    RESEARCH SYNOPSIS


    The only thorough research on Royal Jelly was conducted at the University of Bratislava in the Slovak Republic by Dr. Josef Vittek (Biologist) and Dr. Jaroslav Kresanek (Pharmacologist). After five years of intensive scientific investigation, they discovered the following:

    1. All known viruses could not survive in pure Royal Jelly.

    2. Royal Jelly has anti-bacterial and anti-viral properties, specifically against streptococcus, staphylococcus and bacillus (disease causing bacteria).

    3. Royal Jelly accelerated the formation of tissue in human bones, helping arthritic conditions.

    4. External applications of Royal Jelly on human subjects accelerated the healing process of burns, cuts, scrapes and infections, in half the normal time.

    5. After causing rats cancer cells, the controlled group of rats were given Royal Jelly in their diet. Their cancer was controlled and eventually disappeared. In the other group, which didn’t receive the Royal Jelly, all the rats died of cancer.

    6. Impotency in male subjects was improved considerably in 90% of the cases studied, resulting in superior sexual performance.

    7. It was discovered that Royal Jelly cures sore throats, intestinal problems, reduces high cholesterol levels to normal in 2 weeks, and is helpful in the treatment of hardening of the arteries, arteriosclerosis, vascular disorders and Buerger’s disease. They also found that putting Royal Jelly on bed sores eliminated the problem in a few days.

    8. Incredible results were obtained in rejuvenating sex glands, increased sperm count and sexual function in both sexes. It helped memory and brain activity as well as producing an overall high and lasting source of energy.

    9. It was concluded that ingesting Royal Jelly produced an extraordinarily high resistance to disease.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  15. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Is this a for or against TM?

    The active ingredients of royal jelly are used in pharmaceuticals extensively as anti bacterial all around the world.

    But no pharmaceutical company in the world is going to use it and market it as medicine to treat any of the below ailments as there are many better medicine some of which were derived from other TM

    for sure royal jelly might help with asthma but only a quake would tell the sufferer to use it instead of a steroidal puffer
    • Asthma.
    • Liver disease.
    • Pancreatitis.
    • Stomach ulcers.
    • Kidney disease.
    • Bone fractures.
    • Baldness.
    • Other conditions.
     
  16. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    pharma got the idea from TCM about Royal Jelly @Ipv6Ready
    Also where in the research I put up does it mention the disorders you listed?
    Where does it say in the research I listed to use Royal Jelly over a puffer?

    I dont know what tree you are barking up but it sure ain't the one I planted.
    The topic is TCM for viral infections - read point 1 of the research I listed
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
  17. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I read about Royal jelly being used to cure cancer but Royal jelly is estrogenic. How about Manuka honey? I take lots of those and they are not cheap.
     
  18. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That is 100% what I'm saying. But pharma only use the active ingredients.

    A significant number of very well known pharma is derived from traditional medicines from all around the world, from europe, incas, indians africans and arabs and asians

    Why do big pharma only use the active ingredients because 1 batch of any natural substance is different to another.

    As for the few of the hundreds of thousands of research click on any of these links, there are 700 other active ingredients

    3-hydroxydecanoic acid
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBAU754AU754&biw=1280&bih=577&sxsrf=ALeKk02D7hC_TtF-gLqSF_Az6Yp7ZGtanA:1583206594740&ei=wtBdXqvrLLaO4-EP9fy9mAI&q=Myrmica+Cin+(3-hydroxydecanoic+acid)+royal+jelly&oq=Myrmica+Cin+(3-hydroxydecanoic+acid)+royal+jelly&gs_l=psy-ab.3...126030.131856..132376...0.0..0.222.2480.0j12j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......33i160j33i21.iqJK-Vjmfy4&ved=0ahUKEwir1L2VsP3nAhU2xzgGHXV-DyMQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

    3,10-Hydroxydecanoic acid
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...AhUtwzgGHRR7BusQBSgAegQINxAn&biw=1280&bih=577

    3,11-Dihydroxydodecanoic acid
    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBAU754AU754&sxsrf=ALeKk01p2yzI2afCUVMjMcxnPmrO9h-exw:1583206660294&ei=BNFdXp7XEa-c4-EPo_CdsA8&q=3,11-Dihydroxydodecanoic+acid+royal+jelly&oq=3,11-Dihydroxydodecanoic+acid+royal+jelly&gs_l=psy-ab.3...12613.16858..17369...0.0..0.271.2766.0j9j5......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j33i160j33i21j33i10i160.knW7ECAzE9g&ved=0ahUKEwie6d60sP3nAhUvzjgGHSN4B_YQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

    As for your second point, I am stating traditional herbs has it place but not when there are scientifically proven medications, just buy a multivitamin immune booster lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  19. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Pulling out the active ingredient isnt always best as co factors quite often get missed that occur naturally and thus reducing the effective uptake/absorption rates.

    Again you veer away from the main point of TCM for Viral infections
     
  20. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I am stating traditional herbs has it place but not when there are scientifically proven medications, just buy a multivitamin immune booster lol
     

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