TCM for viral Infections

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by whay, Feb 29, 2020.

  1. whay

    whay Active Member

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    TCM for viral Infections

    Pneumonia Prevention #1肺炎预防1号

    Huang Qi 黄芪 (Radix Astragali) 15g,
    Bai Zhu 炒白术 (Rhizoma Atractylodis Macrocephalae), dry fried 10g
    Fang Feng 防风 (Radix Saposhnikoviae) 10g
    Mian Ma Guan Zhong 贯众 (Rhizoma Dryopteridis Crassirhizomatis) 10g
    Jin Yin Hua 金银花 (Flos Lonicerae Japonicae) 10g
    Chen Pi 陈皮 (Pericarpium Citri Reticulatae) 6g
    Pei Lan 佩兰 (Herba Eupatorii) 10g
    Suitable for: Prevention of pneumonia due to viral infections, and the flu.

    Pneumonia Treatment:
    Diagnosis: Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior 风寒袭表证
    Flu Formula #1 流感1号
    葛根汤或柴葛解肌汤

    Ge Gen 葛根 (Radix Puerariae Lobatae) 15g
    Ma Huang 麻黄 (Herba Ephedrae) 10g
    Gui Zhi 桂枝 (Ramulus Cinnamomi) 6g
    Bai Shao 白芍 (Radix Paeoniae Alba) 15g
    Sheng Jiang 生姜 (Rhizoma Zingiberis Recens) 10g
    Gan Cao 生甘草 (Radix et Rhizoma Glycyrrhizae) 10g
    Da Zao 大枣 (Fructus Jujubae) 10g
    Jin Yin Hua 金银花 (Flos Lonicerae Japonicae) 20g

    Pneumonia Treatment:
    Diagnosis: Toxic Heat Attacking the Lung 热毒袭肺证
    银翘散加清瘟败毒散加减
    Flu Formula #2 流感2号

    Jin Yin Hua 金银花 (Flos Lonicerae Japonicae) 10g
    Lian Qiao 连翘 (Fructus Forsythiae) 10g
    Jing Jie 荆芥 (Herba Schizonepetae) 10g
    Niu Bang Zi 牛蒡子 (Fructus Arctii) 10g
    Bo He 薄荷 (Herba Menthae) 10g
    Gan Cao 生甘草 (Radix et Rhizoma Glycyrrhizae) 10g
    Dan Zhu Ye 淡竹叶 (Herba Lophatheri) 10g
    Lu Gen 芦根 (Rhizoma Phragmitis) 15g
    Huang Lian 黄连 (Rhizoma Coptidis) 6g
     
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  2. whay

    whay Active Member

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    Addition to Pneumonia Prevention #1 肺炎预防1号 above

    Acupressure or Moxa Treatment for Suspected Cases:
    The purpose is to strengthen the immune system, to help alleviate early symptoms, and
    to shorten the duration of the virus.
    Points: Bilateral Zusanli (ST 36), Qihai (CV 6), Zhongwan (CV 12)
    Method and Frequency:
    Moxa Zusanli (ST 36) on both sides for 15 minutes. Moxa Qihai (CV 6) or Zhongwan
    (CV 12) for 10 minutes. (alternating from treatment to treatment).
    Twice a day, once in the afternoon and once at night.
     
  3. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    You can’t seriously be suggesting any of this for Covid19, surely?

    780 million people in China with travel restrictions is a strong argument against the effectiveness of TCM for this virus.
     
  4. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    TCM herbs would help at the early stage but most of the herbal powders dispensed in China in bulk are either fake or substandard with minimum active ingredient in them. Real herbs in dried form (not powder) are very expensive and not affordable. The top quality herbs need to be brewed and this is very time consuming. Cordyceps if taken before the illness sets in can boost immunity significantly (not for some autoimmune) but the real ones are very expensive.

    You can bet that the political elites in China are taking TCM herbs to boost their immunities. Haven't heard of any elite CCP dying from the virus.

    https://www.euyansang.com.sg/en/137-deals-oct/qinghai-wild-cordyceps-5400pcs-冬虫夏草-888842538555.html#gclid=Cj0KCQiAtOjyBRC0ARIsAIpJyGOPtRFA_D0wKL669bdcKxh1az94kh9RHkEiYX7NtnupdIbqsdj-5fsaArF6EALw_wcB&start=1
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  5. sterling-nz

    sterling-nz Well-Known Member

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    I love pharmaceutical drugs because they work and even more importantly they pay for our house and life in general:)
    Lets just keep in mind that many of our drugs were initially derived from plant sources and our greatest hope for future drugs of value currently rest in discovery from flora and fauna.
    Chinese and other Asian medicines ARE NOT homeopathy they are powerful millennia old recipes.
    Now given the opportunity i will take the purified enhanced pharmaceutical version but i would certainly also use the RAW version as administered by ancient cultures if that was all that was available.
     
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  6. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    apparently if you grind up a tigers cock, with TCM it cures a limp dick. lol.
    some of it is just Quackery
     
  7. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    A hospital boss died.

    Anyway, you’ve got me thinking. If these are super rare, then there is a chance they can be farmed in Australia for $$$$
    (Even if the science is suspect)
     
  8. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Caged bears with freely draining bile agree with you.

    The medical missionaries of the 19th century were amazed at the primitive level of medicine in China. I remember reading one story about a Chinese pouring liquid mercury into the wound from a bullet, in the belief the mercury would “dissolve” the bullet.

    There’s a certain level of mysticism that goes with TCM, as though ancient = timelessly good. It should be put to the test like anything else.
     
  9. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Some are from animals too. Snake venom for example, led to the ACE inhibitor blood pressure medication. I think this is the same ACE implicated in Coronavirus.
     
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  10. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The TCM doctors are different from the usual doctors.

    A hospital doctor is also not an elite, at least not in China.
     
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  11. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    I have to also pull you up on this.

    Medical microbiology only began with the use of the microscope. I don’t even think viruses were seen until the electron microscope. This is in the 20th century.

    Therefore, there is no way TCM could have distinguished virus from bacteria, let alone other microorganisms.

    In fact, even now people can’t really clinically distinguish viral from bacterial pneumonia well. The ability to do rapid testing for viruses has only really become widely available in recent times, virtually 21st century.

    TCM from my understanding is not built on this model of disease.

    Can you please explain how TCM knows a virus from a bacterium?
     
  12. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    China can do some pretty amazing things and I think has less barriers to doing clinical trials than the West

    So, I read with interest the following:
    https://sg.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-80-per-cent-patients-143009836.html

    While acknowledging that the ancient practice has no specific treatments for Covid-19 – the pneumonia-like disease caused by the virus, which has sickened over 82,000 people and killed more than 2,800 since the outbreak began in central China in December – some experts said they had witnessed a higher recovery rate among those using both TCM and Western drugs, than solely mainstream treatments.

    Xu Nanping, a vice-minister of science and technology, said last week that about 85 per cent of patients in China had been given the combined treatment.

    China’s National Health Commission prescribes the use of TCM alongside Western drugs in its guidelines for the treatment of people infected with the coronavirus.

    Song Juexian, a doctor with the integrated TCM and Western medicine unit at Xuanwu Hospital in Beijing, said traditional Chinese medicine had the benefit of enhancing the patients’ “internal balance”.

    “Chinese medicine has been practised for at least 3,000 years. It is the wisdom of our ancestors and it is [still] progressing,” she said. “I believe the effects of combined use of TCM and Western medicine will become better and better.”
     
  13. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    The great problem with drawing conclusions from this is that the use of TCM is empirical. There was a good opportunity to do a trial right there, with one group getting placebo and the other TCM.

    As it is, no conclusion can be drawn.

    Some “wisdom of ancestors” is timeless. But you have to be sceptical of any claim to treat a virus with TCM, given that the entire understanding of health and disease is built on radically different foundations (cosmology)
     
  14. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Ok let’s look at that list for the pneumonia treatment concoction

    The more I look at it, it looks like a “cover all bases” shotgun approach.

    In summary what it looks like is:
    A few items to make you sweat, most likely due to ancient or medieval notions of sweating out toxins.
    Ma Huang to pep you up
    Cinnamon to make it all smell good. This may also taste pretty good with ginger.
    Jujube to sweeten it, also has vitamin C
    Liquorice which may have antiviral properties (this needs further consideration). It also tastes “medicinal”
    Japanese Honeysuckle which is touted as good for all kinds of infections, no matter what they are caused by (!)
    A herb that gives women bigger knockers and good skin (once you say this, women will ignore everything else you said and hand over their money now!)

    More detail here:

    1. Ge Gen

    “Thailand’s medical experts ever discovered an interesting fact that women, who live in the mountainous area of northern Thailand and frequently eat Kudzu roots, tend to have bigger breasts, curvy figure, fair complexion, better health condition, and longevity. And in China, this valuable herb has been put in use for more than 1,000 years for clearing away heat and toxic materials, unclogging meridians and dispelling the effects of alcohol, protecting the liver and kidney, and more”

    So, not only will Chinese women be cured of pneumonia, they will have bigger tits and nicer skin. What’s not to love?

    2. Ma Huang

    I don’t even need to look this one up. This is the magic sauce in what the Thai’s call “Ya Bar” or “Crazy Medicine”. It is banned in Australia. The reason is - it’s the source of ephedrine from which methamphetamine is synthesised. It has absolutely no antimicrobial properties. You may as well take a hit from the crack pipe. It reminds me of the way cocaine and laudanum was added to “magic elixirs” of the travelling medicine shows in the USA in the 19th century. Ma Huang will put a spring in your step, but that’s all.

    3. Gui Zhi (cassia or cinnamon bark)

    We all know this one. I guess it makes the witch’s brew smell inviting.

    4. Bai Shao (root of the white peony flower)

    Actions: Nourishes blood; astringes Yin; softens the liver (by nourishing and astringing liver blood); relieves pain; subdues liver Yang rising; regulates the menses; adjusts the Ying and Wei; separates a mixture of Yin pathological factors”

    “Use raw to pacify the liver.”
    “Dry-fry the herb to nourish the blood and harmonize the Ying and Wei”

    “ Common cold with fever, shivers, slight perspiration, no thirst, headache, thin white tongue fur, and a floating, moderate pulse or, in other words, a wind-cold exterior pattern with disharmony between the constructive and the defensive. (Take Gui Zhi Tang. 10 minutes later, eat very hot rice porridge, and stay well covered in bed to promote perspiration.)”

    Sweating treatment was quite common in 19th century Western medicine, like leaches and blood letting.

    5. Shen Jiang (Common Ginger)

    Aside from being tasty, ginger “has a wide spectrum of use and its effect is rapid but does not last long. It is used primarily to induce sweat and expel pathogens”.

    So again, it is a diaphoretic, like peony flower root and frankly also Ephedra.

    This points to a belief of “sweating out” the disease as a type of treatment.

    6. Gan Cao

    This one is interesting. It is the liquorice root. Liquorice was mentioned as having possible antiviral properties in another thread there.

    “The most pertinent review about licorice comes from Li Shizhen, the writer of “Compendium of Materia Medica”, in which he said:” Licorice herb, as the monarch drug in prescriptions, inhibits the toxicities from 72 minerals and 1,200 grass and trees. As a result, it is revered as the Emperor’s Teacher for the credit of reconciling the rest herbs”

    Bold, even magical claims. But there’s more.

    “1. It fights arrhythmia;
    2. It prevents ulcers, inhibits gastric acid secretion, relieves gastrointestinal smooth muscle spasm, eases pain, and works in coordination with Paeoniflorin, which is the active ingredient of peony;
    3. It promotes the secretion of pancreatic juice;
    4. It relieves cough significantly, makes expectoration easy, and prevents asthma to a certain extent;
    5. It has antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, anti-allergic effects;
    6. It protects the inflamed mucous membranes of the throat and trachea;
    7. It has a certain toxic glucuronide-like detoxification;
    8. It has an effect similar to the adrenocortical hormone;
    9. It counteracts diuresis, lowers lipid level, protects liver, and so on
    6. It protects the inflamed mucous membranes of the throat and trachea;
    7. It has a certain toxic glucuronide-like detoxification;
    8. It has an effect similar to the adrenocortical hormone;
    9. It counteracts diuresis, lowers lipid level, protects liver, and so on”

    So it sounds like the idea is for it to work with peony or as a symptomatic treatment for a sore throat as well as an anti-tussive to suppress cough.

    But you know it is in a class of it’s own when the claim is made that “It has antibacterial, antiviral, anti-inflammatory, anti-allergic effects”

    this sounds like the writer has NFI

    7. DaZao (the jujube fruit)

    This has a lot of vitamin C and tastes sweet. “A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down“.

    8. Jin Yin Hua (Japanese Honeysuckle)

    An acne treatment, so it might have antibiotic properties. But acne is not caused by a virus.

    “It is broadly anti-inflammatory and anti-pathogenic, applicable to infections of the throat, digestive tract and skin. Its action is to draw toxins out of the body.”

    “In Chinese medicine, this herb is famous for treatment of colds, flus and respiratory infections where there is fever, sore throat and irritability.“


    So out of this cocktail, only a few actually claim to treat “cold, flu, pneumonia”

    If I have some time, I might see if there is anything more to them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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  15. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    This comment shows a lot of ignorance relating to your understanding of TCM, its broad foundations and it's many different streams/schools of training.

    Immediate scepticism because its TCM? A very unscientific, biased and dismissive comment would you say?

    A lot of the concepts are presented differently than how westerners understand medicine but do come to the same conclusion in relation to causation.

    Eg - look at diagnosis western - pnuenomia , eastern - wind-cold attack invading the exterior........same same.... Eastern gives a descriptive of the pathology, Western names it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  16. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Virus was not even identified by electron microscopy until a good way into the 20th century

    Yet TCM already had a treatment for “viral pneumonia”

    You can’t defend this Stoic, it’s shonky.
     
  17. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    Chinese cosmology is a radically different worldview of disease. Reading the way TCM conceptualises organ pathology it is analogous to Galen’s four humors. This was a system of understanding disease that the ancient Greeks, Romans and Muslims believed. It was the dominant Western view until around the Age of Enlightenment, around the 1600s.
     
  18. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Your understanding of differential diagnosis of TCM is whats shonky sorry.

    The treatment is for the symptoms that are present in someone who has viral pneumonia.

    By this I mean the treatment is for a condition of Wind-Cold Invading the Exterior... the fact this is in western terms pneumonia is irrelevant
     
  19. minimilled

    minimilled Active Member

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    That’s also roughly the time the first microscope was invented.
     
  20. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Dude, I practice TCM and I can guarantee you Chinese cosmology doesnt come into my treatments so let that bone go, continuing on that vein merely highlights your ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
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