South African parliament passes expropriation law

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by mmm....shiney!, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    which free-market policies are you referring to?
    you can facepalm yourself.

    Do you really expect the states use the theory that is over 150 years old
    without adjustments?

    Or you are claiming there are pure capitalistic countries without any social elements policies?
    Ever heard about welfare, social services and such?

    Welcome to the world of adults, there is no pure socialism or capitalism,
     
  2. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Take it to the capitalism thread.
     
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  3. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    why would I do this?

    The discussion started, when bordsilver claimed
    that the motion passed in SA, was within Marxism or
    revolutionary handbooks as in China, Russia....

    I an just pointing out Marx said nothing about race struggle
    and there was no race struggle in China or Russia.
     
  4. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Clearly you haven’t spent time in Chinese cities or Hong Kong.

    And your logic that China’s copying of every technological and aesthetic aspect of advanced capitalist civilisations means that the West therefore copied failed, backward Marxist states escapes me.

    The reason that Chinese folks have a reputation for being poor drivers isn’t because they are bad drivers as such, it’s because this is the first generation of Chinese citizens that have ever driven cars.
     
  5. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Clearly, you are trying to measure every nation/state by the same standard.
    I compare from what it was with what it is now.

    It is the economy #1 or #2, when numerous states rely on good relationships with them.
    And yes, due to China-specific circumstances the process is long.
     
  6. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    any example of a pure capitalistic country without
    any socialism elements.

    or may be a free-market ?
    In an idealized free market economy, prices for goods and services are set freely by the forces of supply and demand and are allowed to reach their point of equilibrium without intervention by government policy.
     
  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Because this is my thread and I’m politely asking you to take any discussion about the merits of capitalism v socialism to the capitalism thread where it won’t clutter this thread.

    If you had read who introduced the legislation you would know that he is from a Marxist party, with clear intentions to redistribute private land via the State into the hands of those deemed fit by the State. according to criteria not framed by the needs of consumers ie the free-market, but by the political intentions of the ruling elite. The State would then further introduce policies that would favour small-scale farming and would agree to buy 50% of the country’s agricultural needs from these small-scale farms. Thereby further removing the agricultural sectors from any price signalling that the free-market was able to provide.

    That is clearly Marxist or if you’re not happy with that term, Socialist then. Not to mention their other goals of nationalising banks and mineral industries.
     
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  8. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I did even better, I provided the video of the debates from in SA parliament.
    South African parliament passes expropriation law

    The guy can call himself Marxist or Democrate or anyting else, however Marx said nothing
    on the race struggle.

    Since you are a fan of logic, you recon the fact that the guy calls himself a Marxist, makes him one?
    Even, if Marx said nothing on the subject?

    The guy clearly makes the case on oppression of a race, not class.
    I even put the time of his speach 02.10
     
  9. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    There you go muddying the conversation with clear, cited responses again.
     
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  10. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    There we go someone talking about scholar articles and genocides, but cannot provide any facts.
     
  11. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Backing the white South Africans into a corner where they have to fight for their lives and homes will not end well because they will fight to win and they will be very effective at it. And, if it reaches a point that they look like losing due to sheer force of numbers stacked against them they are also more than capable of deleting the infrastructure of modern agriculture in South Africa along with its economy and sending it back to it’s default primitive hunter gatherer status.
     
  12. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The facts are there, you're just in denial and hiding behind some pseudo-intellectual smokescreen.

    Definitely not, you only have to look at our own Liberal Party to understand that they are nothing like the Classical Liberals they purport to model themselves on. But they are a liberal party nonetheless, exhibiting liberal-like polices when the political wind blows them that way. But that is beside the point. Marx may not have mentioned anything about race, he was after all chiefly concerned with the class struggle, but he was insistent that violent social upheaval rather than persuasion and reformation was the means to an end. He also conflated political and economic power, which is understandable at the time but to cling to that fallacy in modern times is erroneous. And his chief end was the confiscation of property from the ruling class and its redistribution to the politically and economically disenfranchised (via the State), which at the time were the workers - according to Marx anyway.

    Looking at the policies and ideology of the EFF it clearly indicates that it is a party that draws heavily on Marxist ideology, they even state that. They conflate economic and political power, they view the social condition as being characterised by the deliberate actions of the haves persecutiong the have-nots and they actively support the violent redistribution of the means of production via the State. If one asserts that they are heavily influenced by Marx, and one agitates for Marxist political and economic outcomes, then one clearly is Marxist.

    Alternatively, if the EFF is not Marxist what is it?
     
  13. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Any proofs? what work/study of Marx are you referencing?
    Or it is another portion of crap from you found in the Web?

    Did you ever read works of Marx? which one?

    Which exactly policies of EFF are you talking about?
    Progamm of the party? Parliament bills? Conference proceedings?
    Where are the proofs?

    So far, you haven't referenced a single document.
    (I provided the link to the Communist Manifesto, Land Decree, IMF stats and SA parliament debates).

    Where are the documents of the EFF party where their follow particular principles of Marxism?
    Or it is again, the load of crap from the forum guru?

    Without links on the documents, all you said it is just you wet fantasies.
    I understand it is a part of modern culture, but thought SS comunity is more advanced.
     
  14. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Look them up yourself, last time I cited some scholarly work you hid behind a smokescreen of pseudo-intellectualism.

    I'm done with trying to talk to jerks.
     
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  15. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    lol, the forum warrior eats all the crap on the Web and cannot provide a single document
     
  16. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    @greedy Kobold - I seem to have struck a nerve with my attempt at dry humour. I unreservedly apologise for any misunderstanding and angst caused.

    To be absolutely clear, in no way do I believe that Marx ever advocated racism. He was categorically attacking perceived "classes". Coupled with this is his pseudo-economics of Socialism.

    In practice there are often easy stereotypes that can be made between classes and races; classes and religion; classes and occupation etc. Hence, when people with Marxist sympathies wish to forcibly move society toward a Communist/Socialist state of being there has often been targeted murder, plunder, imprisonment, torture and/or expulsion of classes of people including specific targeting of people because they were of a particular religion (e.g Christians under Mao, or Christians/Muslims/Buddhists under Lenin) or ethnic group (e.g. decossackization by the Bolsheviks, or the targeting of the Chinese and Vietnamese by the Khmer Rouge).

    While the explicit targeting of people because of race or religion is technically a bastardisation of Marx's brainfarts, the practicalities of forcing Communism onto a society means that it inevitably happens (indeed I struggle to think of any attempted Communist society beyond peaceful kibbutzes &c. where the class attacks have not also coincided with attacks based on race, religion or nationality).

    On a parallel matter, to be abundantly clear, I have no problem whatsoever in people wishing to group together and run their society using Marx's principles, unsullied by the murderous dictators pretending to enact Marx's principles. I do, however, have a massive issue with people trying to force others to live according to Marxist principles because that is fundamentally immoral. (Technically I have an issue with any socio-political philosophy being forced onto people including Liberal Democracy.) Within a free society, people can live, work and operate in Marxist economies simultaneously alongside people living, working and operating in a capitalist economy.
     
  17. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    @bordsilver - not at all,
    it is the second case on my memorie you are trying
    to provide an analysis.

    i.e. you join and measure the different processes in
    different countries/epochs by one standard.

    Steps in the Marxist revolution handbook (as followed in Russia, China, North Korea, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, North Vietnam, Zimbabwe)

    there are plenty of factula mistakes, i.e.
    1) Ukraine has communist party banned, nothing to do with the ideology
    you are referring to.
    2) Russia is a capitalis country, USSR was soialist.
    3) there was decossackization by Bol'shevists, in fact there were cossaks in USSR army

    there are more
     
  18. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I am sure to repeat ole propagandist mantras is easier than
    to educate yourself on the subject

    here is decossacked cossaks during WWII
    1430840386_ofbd901.jpg
     
  19. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    ?? You are talking about current/recent policies not past policies when communism was being imposed (and I note that you did this earlier as well). That is a very strange twist. The fact that they have moved on from the very dark period in their history is meaningless in this context.
     
  20. greedy Kobold

    greedy Kobold Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    We can go through your fantasies, step by step.
    Here is your original message

    Steps in the Marxist revolution handbook (as followed in Russia, China, North Korea, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, North Vietnam, Zimbabwe):
    1. Expropriation without compensation (particularly of farmers)
    2. Famine
    3. Capital controls
    4. Price controls
    5. ? <possibly involves underpants>
    6. ?
    7. Utopia
     

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