Hey Guys, Wonder if you have a choice, will you weight more on coins or bars in stacking 10ozs? At the moment I got more coins than bars. The bars are quite plain to me (no offence). On the other hands, coins are detailed and more pleasant to see although they take more spaces in stacking due to its roundshape. Correct me if Iam wrong...when it comes to monetary value, you expect coins will appreciated more than bars. Anyway, I read once the thread here, when the silver hits the bottom buy the cheapest form you can get. Thanks and Have a fantastic Sunday (esp those in NSW). Cheers KS
If the premiums above spot are equal, then you are more likely to see value in a coin. If you can get bars for cheaper, then thats the way id go - it comes down to preference, are you in it because you like the silver story, or do you prefer to take the risk on buying into premium products?
There is more potential upside to some coins... especially ones that come as part of a series with limited mintages (in Aus perth mint products in particular). Eagles, maples etc dont really have the same potential as say kooks, lunars etc, but retain the benefits of being a coin- a face value and very harsh penalties for anyone found counterfeiting them, as well as being easily recognisable to the average punter. I think coins represent a double play, you are punting on the silver price and possible future gains based on collectability/scarcity. With bars you are just punting on the silver price. Choose whichever option you are most comfortable with really.
Thanks mate. Agreed with you. I supposed It comes to a preference for me. On the last dip, I bought more on the 10ozs dragons n kooks although PM bars were cheaper
And every dollar you spent on the dragons/kooks above the "bar" price, you gave up x amount of silver.
To me it's all about $ per oz of 999 silver. I'd go $350 10oz bar anyday over 1oz dragons at $50 each which some would snap up in a second. I've got maples pandas eagles koalas scottsdales Morgans etc paid between $35 and $42 each. I don't see where the premiums come from on other coins and neither will a dealer. eBay takes 9% of your sale also remember that when thinking of re sale. Only option left for getting back $ when selling 100% over spot paid for coins is sellin to enthusiasts on here but I wouldn't like to rely on that IMO in hard times.
Depends on where your potential future market is... I have found that coins are easier to move around internationally than bars... since they are more recognizable.
My opinion is if things go crazy and silver becomes very expensive, then I think the premiums currently enjoyed will count for very little or nothing. This will be in part, because everyone with a dragon or kook or whatever is going to come into the seller's market. If you're trying to sell a dragon and there are 2000 other people trying to do the same, then you're not going to be enjoying that "rarity" premium. Also, if it comes to that stage where people are moving into PMs to protect themselves from fiat decline, people will be wanting gold and silver in any form. They won't be fussy and they won't understand why you insist on a premium when an ounce of anything else costs less. Again, just my thoughts.
Totally agree as well. Although, whilst the 10oz Dragons are still about the same price as a 10oz bar, I am going to suggest getting the dragons as they have a 'chance' of retaining a premium in the future.
It's all about your sentiment on silver... If things go crazy and silver goes to the moon who is going to care about recouping a $10 premium, no one will. What are the chances of silver going to the moon any time soon, slim? If however silver stays flat, more likely it seems, then your premiums are safe and may even increase as your coins become more collectable. Your silver bar will not increase and will stay the same value, which is good too, it is a hedge against inflation. If silver tanks, then you have some numismatic value in your coins and they will perform better than bars. If they discover that you can make silver out of thin air then at least you have the face value on a coin, bars become less than useful. It is all down to how well you think silver is going to do, personally I think staying the same is more likely than going to the moon any time soon which is more likely than it tanking, so I stack coins over bars. If you are going to stack and never sell anything until it goes to the moon then bars are fine. I however think that it may be 10 years or so before silver takes off, in that time I will probably sell a lot of the coins to collectors at a profit and buy bars with the money, the bars I will keep until the time has come, or pass them on down the family line. No one gets really excited about adding another plain bar to the stack, but adding a new coin, that's different, plus you have the mighty media machine of the Perth Mint doing all your advertising for you and getting the crowds excited for the new products which in turn drives up prices for the older products. If they at least stamped a date on the bars they might attract a small premium.
Personally, I see adding products with a high premium to a stack as being very risky. The value attributed to these products is dependant on finding someone to pay these premiums when you decide to sell. If I was holding a coin which is worth 5x its price in silver then I would get rid of it ASAP as I see the premium as being somewhat undefined and overnight it could be erroded, whereas, the value of the silver isn't going to be disappearing anytime soon. I can't understand why people pay hundreds of dollars for an ounce of silver just because it has a pretty picture on it. Sure, the market might value your coin at that price today, but are you really going to see return on your investment? Why would the value increase in the next 5-10 years if it is already valued at multiples of spot? I just see it as a massive risk. I would prefer to know that I can happily get spot for my stack at any time, instantly, and not have to search for buyers or pay transaction costs by selling on ebay. But I can appreciate that most people here disagree, and I do understand the desire to collect items. By the way, I enjoy looking at a stack of bars
Currently on Goldstackers a 10oz dragon costs $12.5 more than a 10oz Perth Mint bar. Around 0.4oz per 10oz dragon premium. Some possible outcomes: Scenario #1 Silver goes to $1000/oz in 2015 and everybody mad scrambles for silver, your silver bar and silver coin both command crazy premiums of 20% over spot. You miss out on the 'premium' of a dragon but still end up being part of the silver to the moon train. You miss out $400 every 10oz dragon you bought instead of a bar but you still get $12000 anyway. Scenario #2 Silver goes to $1000/oz in 2015 and everybody mad scrambles for silver, your silver bar commands crazy premiums of 20% over spot but the newb stackers (mom and pop) see this awesome dragon coin and are willing to pay 30% over spot. You get the premium and more. I know I was buying stupid shit during Easter because I had no idea. You gain $600 every 10oz dragon you bought instead of a bar. Scenario #3 Silver goes to $15/oz in 2015 and everybody wants to sell their silver (herd mentality, weak hands etc). Nobody wants that generic bar (NTR for example) because there aren't enough buyers even dealers won't want it. That 10oz dragon on the other hand, might be able to fetch $200 or more (going by performance of previous S2 lunars). Assuming it sells at $200 and the bar sells at $160, the premium of $12.50 on the dragon still makes it slightly better than the bar. Scenario #4 Silver does SFA until 2015 and hovers between $30-45. Your silver bar remains spot + X% whereas the dragon will most likely fetch more than the original $12.5 premium over the 10oz bar. Take your pick.
OR Scenario #5 Silver goes to $120, everyone is clamoring to get in. BUT they have seen the you tube videos of fake NTRs and wont buy of you cause the think you a scammer. The only place you can sell to is a dealer who has a XRF and charges for its use, then pays you spot - % - fee for XRF. The 10oz dragon on the other hand you easily sell to some SilverStacker for spot + $12.50 premium in .0005 of a second
Also, please remember that there are numis coins and there is the junk churned out by the Mints, it isn't always easy to tell them apart but generally, if there is a colour picture on it, then it is junk. This has been mentioned in the UK press recently... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-from-overpriced-souvenir-coins-6294131.html The Royal Mint is being accused of exploiting the general public with overpriced commemorative coins that have minimal investment value. After 38 years as a Royal Mint agent, a leading numismatic dealer with 57 years in the business, is now refusing to trade in any more of its coins because he believes the market has been devalued by the vast numbers of issues and exorbitant prices. Richard Lobel the UK's biggest dealer in the secondary market for Royal Mint coins condemns what he sees as the exploitation of people who pay up to four-figure sums for what they assume are valuable keepsakes. He said that coins celebrating the 2012 Olympics and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee are among issues that are worth far less than the prices paid. The resale value of most non-gold coins is under 50 per cent of the original price. Mr Lobel, managing director of Coincraft, said: "I'm tired of how many people's hearts we've had to break." Until a few years ago, the Royal Mint issued commemorative coins for exceptional events. Now, there are dozens of issues 68 for the Olympics alone. They include a gold 5 coin now selling on the Royal Mint website for 2,880, for which the owner might get 1,400 at most. A dealer would resell it for 1,500 to 1,600, Mr Lobel said. Other experts echoed his criticisms. Seth Freeman of Baldwin's, numismatic dealers since 1872, said: "Once somebody's bought a set from the Royal Mint, it's worth about a quarter to a third of what you paid for it ... and I've never known anyone to get their money back, even in these days of high gold prices." Experts believe that the Royal Mint issues too many coins, in too many different metals, while repeatedly raising prices. Mr Lobel said: "In the last four or five months, they've started charging almost 100 for a silver-proof crown. We saw it go to 49.50 and we were shocked. Then it went to 55 and we were stunned. I don't know what word we used for 99.50." There is no real investment in older issues, he said, citing coins marking the wedding of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer in 1981, sold then for around 39: "Today, we'd sell them for the same price." Those done for a Diana and Prince Charles overseas tour fared even worse, he added: "We melt those." Peter Jackson, another numismatist dealer, said: "With the economic situation, people are tending to look upon coins as an investment. A lot of people don't really know what they're buying ... I think there'll be a lot of tears shed in a few years' time when people realise. The Royal Mint ... is trading on their name to such an extent that they're pumping out all sorts of things." Ivan Macquisten, editor of the Antiques Trade Gazette, said: "I think ... the public would have serious cause for complaint if they discovered that they were paying the Royal Mint four times the price... they would pay elsewhere. Not everyone collects ... with an eye to resale ..., but to be so out of pocket the moment you buy something ... just isn't right." But Shane Bissett, the Royal Mint's director of Commemorative Coin, argues that with sales of 150m last year, demand is strong and prices reflect the craftsmanship involved. On being asked about the disappointment of owners about resale values, he said: "Commemorative coins are not sold as investments. They're sold to celebrate commemorative events." Less bang for your buck: What buyers stand to lose Olympics gold proof 5 coin Royal Mint price: 2,880 Likely value if sold on to dealer: 1,400 The Queen's Diamond Jubilee UK Gold Proof Coin Royal Mint Price: 2,400 Likely value if sold on to dealer: 1,300 2011 UK Mary Rose 2 Gold Proof Coin Royal Mint price: 995 Likely value if sold on to dealer: 550
I'd just like to say that most people here aren't stacking because they think the price of silver is going to go down. Therefore, while a silver coin would probably hold more value in a drop, the main problem is you chose the wrong asset to begin with if that scenario came into play. And Jislizard, good point. I learned that lesson when I bought all sorts of "limited edition" comic books when I was a child. The price was fine as long as the popularity remained, but once many of these comics became yesterday's titles, so did the premiums on the limited editions. The lesson for me was that if it is "limited" only by virtue of the maker restricting numbers to create the premium, I will stay away. The reason the "real" numismatic stuff is valuable is because they were never made with a premium in mind - they just became harder to find over time. It's funny how many people here understand that fiat is based mostly on illusory value and that same principle applies to many of these coins. In the end, if you melted both down you'd have the same physical silver in your hand.
