ruthenium stacking?

Discussion in 'General Precious Metals Discussion' started by phrenzy, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    So we've all probably seen the flaming maple leaf ad by now, ruthenium plated. I hadn't really thought of ruthenium in a precious metal sense before so I did a little digging and what I found was very interesting.

    First, in the last 10 years it's been as expensive as $900USD/oz but is only $56USD/oz now. It's 3 times rarer than gold or platinum and has similarly useful properties to other platinum group metals (as a catalyst or low reactivity plating etc. with future use driven by nano tech) and is used in those capacities and that many of the significant sources are in the platinum deposits in Russia and Africa that are most unstable supply wise.

    You can find bullion bars but it's something like 6 times the spot price and they don't offer buy backs.

    However, I've found a place that offers .995 pure sponge in sealed plastic containers with purity, assay info and unique serial number that come from Heraeus Precious Metals Corporation (they are the refiner not the supplier). They do offer buy backs without any additional assay fees as long as the seals on the containers are still affixed and if you order enough the premium is only around $12-15usd an ounce.

    The only catch is that the jars are 50oz each (recently worth close to $50k but now closer to $3200) and the premium is dependant on how many jars you buy (as well as defraying shipping costs from the states).


    At the moment it's only a vague thought bubble at the moment and this is as much to kick off a discussion on ruthenium as trying to actually arrange a group buy, but what do you guys think, specifically or generally?


    For my part if they were 10oz jars instead of 50 I would have put in an order already since this stuff is about as bottomed as something as useful and rare as this metal can be. In many applications I think it will start to replace other more expensive platinum group metals so I don't see any reason for it not to be at rhodium or palladium levels one day soon as they get harder and harder to find.
     
  2. Phiber

    Phiber Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Can't buy it paper? Would be easier and cheaper.
     
  3. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    Can't seem to. You can buy a platinum group etf in the states but that's a basket and doesn't seem to include ruthenium, though I read it argued that because it's found in trace in platinum ore if it spikes so will platinum but it's not the same. I did look hard for that first now that I own some paper but it looks like a no go.

    Seems likeep physical or nothing.

    If anyone finds a paper method I'd be very interested.
     
  4. Caput Lupinum

    Caput Lupinum Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Try and search companies that mine platinum that would likely have exposure to ruthenium
     
  5. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I could be in but the issue is you cant divide the 50 oz bucket meaning from said supplier everyone commits to one each.
     
  6. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    If there was enough interest I could buy an extra one to divvy up. The problem there is that then you will have to find someone to accept it to sell. Apparently that's easy but they will charge you an assay fee, not sure how much that is. Otherwise a sealed jar is as good as a bar or round.

    Regarding the mines for ruthenium exposure, I think part of the play is that it goes gang busters as platinum (or other white metals) gets harder to find either through consumption of easy ore deposits or supply disruption like in recent strikes. Obviously speculation and investment is part of it as well (see palladium and rhodium), but I think a direct stack or paper investment in the metal itself would be better.

    High ruthenium prices might help prop up a platinum miner or even make them much more profitable but I think it could do really well even when platinum miners are closing as well.
     
  7. whinfell

    whinfell Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Don't forget to add 10% GST :|
     
  8. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    Shhhhhh :)
    No, let's not forget that though.

    I'm thinking about asking about an allocated bullion service. Either with liberty gold and silver (the company with the ruthenium) or with an australian bullion company that could buy a couple jars and offer allocated out of that. This might make things easy and create a mini market.

    Any suggestions on who might be good to approach here in australia? until recently I would have bought a jar for myself but at the moment I'd be selling other metal to make it work. Not impossible but not ideal either. We're talking $4250 aud a jar.
     
  9. Stoic Phoenix

    Stoic Phoenix Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    just sell a kidney, you got 2
     
  10. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    You think silver is depressed against 2011 highs?
    [​IMG]
    Source: infomine
     
  11. Revils

    Revils Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'd love an allocated solution - looked into Ruthenium about 2 years ago but all the hassle wasn't worth it
     
  12. tozak

    tozak Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Melting point is too high, 2,334C means no home made Ruthenium bars so sponge it not real useful

    If you want to take a stab at a similar type of investment maybe look at Rhodium, Baird&Co make 1oz Rhodium bars maybe like spot+40% with the GST. Has a similar dip down in percentage terms from the peak around the same time period.
     
  13. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    Rhodium is something like 1/9th the peak vs ruthenium which is like 1/16th and the premium is lower on the sponge.

    I actually like rhodium since it's more recognized but that premium just hurts too much.
     
  14. rwmmint

    rwmmint New Member

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    We offer ruthenium in troy ounce ingots and we will soon be offering "investor lots" of ruthenium (probably 10 troy ounces). We share your interest in ruthenium and other truly rare metals and offer many of them.
     
  15. House

    House Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  16. serial

    serial Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    54 us an oz is current spot price. $229 seems like a bit of a premium
     
  17. phrenzy

    phrenzy In Memoriam - July 2017 Silver Stacker

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    So, another forum member and I have been playing PM hockey, doing some research and making calls to try and have some Australian made small run 1oz ruthenium bars or blobs poured.

    There are some potential technical hurdles to overcome and a few details are still being ironed out but I think we could make some pretty cool boutique blobs for significantly less than $229 USD. They would be 99.5% pure like the raw product (from established metals supplier heraeus) and confirmed by traditional assay and xrf.

    We're also working on some cool design work to make something that looks pretty nice as well. Thinking numbered and certified first release for everyone here :)

    It will take a while to get everything together, so it could be a few months before we have something to put in people's hands but the wheels are in motion.

    Details to follow.
     
  18. Revils

    Revils Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Anyone up for making the blobs? I've got 5oz I'd be keen to see as a bar instead of in 5 1oz vials.
     
    66rounds likes this.
  19. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    There's your problem. Even if it skyrocketed, who's going to buy it?
     

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