G'day all. Noticed today, that a NGC 69 is a lot cheaper to buy than the 70, is the NGC 70 really worth the extra buyin price? Might be a stupid question, but one that crossed my mind today .
If you're investing in 2011 silver pandas then probably get 70s, same with 2010. I got 69 as I am completing a 69 set but otherwise I wouldn't There are far too many 69s and 70s of the newer years and prices will grow slower for 69 than 70 since the supply is larger. For the older years, 70 would be awesome but majority of people cannot afford them (including myself) so we stick to 69s. Badon discusses the mintage rarity vs grade rarity a fair bit and explains this better. TL;DR: 2011/2010, buy 70. Other years, buy 70 IF good deal or 69 if you think the coin is good (eg. mirrored/LD serif 99 etc) or 68 if it's super rare (mintage ~500).
He's not saying buy 68s for rare mintage, but that 68s are OK if that's all you can afford. For example, all my gods of war & wealth are PF 68 because I couldn't spend $1500-$2000 on 69s. If I could have, I would have though.
Interesting, I believe your view point is probably more correct then. I was thinking of the statement where Badon says having the coin regardless of grade may sometimes be more important than trying to hunt the top stuff. But upon thinking again I think he does mean what you said, having a 68 is ok if that's all you can afford. ps. God of War ~$1300 now at PF69 . I am looking to buy soon, weighing up between OMP and PF69, I kind of like the box.
Many of the 69s include the box . Regardless, the rule is always the same: buy the rarest and best you can.
I would say even 67 is OK if we are talking about key date like 2000 Mirror Panda that has probably more fakes than the genuine coin's mintage. The question would be how much premium to be paying. I've got some indicative figures that we can use as a guide: http://chinesepandacoin.blogspot.com/2011/12/premiums-of-key-date-silver-panda-coins.html
I'm going to have to disagree. For the 2000 mirror panda, out of 250 graded, 5 are 67, 49 are 68, and 196 are 69 (NGC #s). So if you are getting a 67, then you are getting the worst coin of the bunch - destroying the grade rarity of your selection. You'll still have mintage rarity and popularity (the other two factors), but why have 2 factors when you can have all 3?
Probably for the same reason you used to justified the purchase of your PF68s. Some people simply may not be able to afford the 68 or 69 in this coin. If it's a rare, expensive coin, that you really want, just buy it and be happy. Between 68 and 69 I can hardly see a difference. 67 is where I can clearly see the imperfections abound. I think the eye-appeal and potential for resale of 68s is still high. If I bought a 67 at a bargain and it compared well to a 68, I'd probably resubmit it to see if it would bump up to a 68, but that's a whole different conversation.
Yes, I'm actually thinking along with heyimderrick. If budget is not a problem at all, we would all go for top grade to form a MS70 set. But tamo is right that a 67 would spoil the set if one has a min 69 for the rest of the set.
If cost is the issue, I still think you'd be better off getting, for example, 2 1999 MS 69s instead of 1 2000 MS 67. Paying for anything always involves giving up all other choices. In this case, I think going for a 67 when there are plenty of 69s available wouldn't be the best choice. In ultra-rare coins the lack of available coins partially makes the choice for you. I have a PF 66 pagoda, but there were only 260 of them made.
Tamo you make a valid point, and I understand your view, but I think you're focusing on future ROI too much in this instance. For example, if I really really want a 2000 mirror, buying 1999s doesn't fulfill that want. It all depends on the buyer's overall objective. While I'm sure we all want to make money and we all want to have nice collections, there is a balancing act to perform to achieve both. If all one is doing is trying to purchase one specific coin for a collection on a limited budget, then I say weight the options and work within your budget to get the nicest coin that will make you happy. Don't worry about getting caught up in grades so much. If the options available based on a budget are to buy a MS6X or none at all, I would most likely rather have the coin I want in a lower grade than not have it at all. But that's just me. The way I look at it, even if the coin is a lower grade at least it is authentic and unexposed to future degradation. I would only consider this with limited/high-value/highly counterfeited coins though where there are significant price differences between OMP and Slabbed. More than likely you'd be able to resell later on and recover your purchase price anyway. au_ag_miner, some of this touches on what we were chatting about in this thread: http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-18597-ms-what-determining-the-value-of-graded-vs-omp.html You may find some other useful info there. Just my opinion. On a side note, it seems all the Panda collectors here are turning into slab addicts, lol.
I think the usa friends infected this forum with the ngc thing I like more the ngc coin than omp because i can touch it and see it better than in omp
I agree for the most part, more so with the older coins that rattle in the capsules. Although lately I've had a hell of a time with NGC coins I've purchased on eBay having terrible milk stains. So annoying to buy a MS69 that looks fine in photos just to see it under a light covered with stains. So far I've had 5 x 2010 MS69s and 1 x 2008 MS69 that have been major disappointments. Sending them all in to NGC for review under their guarantee.
Fair enough. I'm always looking at it from an investment perspective. If you are trying to complete a set, then you have much fewer choices.
It is really wonderful to hear the different approaches that everyone has. Everyone's situation will be different from each other, so the strategies to achieve their aims will be different too. I'm personally an OMP person with the hopes of migrating to NGC in the near future. As Pandas increase in price, the cost of getting stuff graded decreases (percentage wise). E.g. A 2011 $47.50 ... cost of grading $21 (51%) E.g. A 2001 $135 ... cost of grading $21 (16%) So hopefully as Pandas shoot for the stars, grading will become a marginal expense... E.g. A 2000 Mirror $1500 ... cost of grading 1% E.g. A 1999 Serif $1000 ... cost of grading 2% E.g. A 1995 MD ST $1200 ... cost of grading 2% If they grade poorly, I should be able to keep my initial investment cash. MS65-MS66 If they grade fairly, I should be able to make a marginal return. MS67-MS68 If they grade well, I should be able to make good return. MS69 If they grade MS70, I would like to print money. Just my thoughts
As of now there are no MS70 2000 mirrors, plenty have tried though. I don't know if PCGS has any. If you find one yennus you have permission to print money (cash money, that is)... yes indeed The great MS68/69 debate. I'm still undecided, sometimes it weighs big on my mind, other times not so. Late years coins no way buy 68, SOME early coins with dodgy mintage numbers (above 500) IMO will be just fine! Guys, in 20 years these relics are going to be even rarer! At the moment MS69's are having their day but what happens when all those love;y golden age coins arent available through people holding onto them? Then you may see 68's do nicely. So don't count those 68's out. As derrick rightly pointed out, a 68 is often flawless to the eye ie: GREAT eye appeal. The MS68 I have is a 1995 bimetal 1/10th 1/28th. It's a stunning coin and I'm stoked to have it. There is a 2,500 mintage officially on this coin but I believe far fewer than this number were made. Ge's book agrees with a 2,500 mintage yet gives it 3 stars for rarity ( I understand this is for the Chinese market only... possibly). This is plain odd. On the OMP debate, I'm done with buying OMP coins for now, irrespective of the coin. I could't agree more with Tamo on this. I'll have to be more selective than my usual happy-go-lucky strategy, buying graded usually means fewer coins bought... unless you're a hawk like fishball I would dearly love to see the softness in the CC market run another 6 months as I'm fully bought up at the moment. I like derricks viewpoint here although Tamo's is solid investment advice and faultless... I've been raging against Tamos strategy in my mind but really have to decide that its' the best play. However, we are dealing with inaccurate bookkeeping on alot of these golden age, pre 2001 coins. Yes, my bimetallic won't fetch the price of a 69 when I come to sell but it should still do verrry well I believe. Off topic... does anyone know why the '82 and '83 Au Pandas are given 3 and 2 stars resepctively in Mr. Ge's book?? I'm all flumoxed over here at this.
I've seen PF66's sell like hotcakes for older year coins. I'm pretty sure a 68 of a super rare (pagodas, goldfish, I&D, Guan Yin Gold, Soong Ching Ling, Munich Pandas etc) coin/medal would sell just fine Newer year (> 2005) coins definitely stick with 70 IF you feel comfortable buying them, otherwise at minimum 69. ps. No idea about Mr Ge's book, but heck if my 83 Gold pandas are as rare as your bimetals then... WINNING. pps. Even I have fewer coins when buying graded... the money for my PF69 Goldfish set doesn't come from thin air lol.
