This has been my experience also Thor, i think you've summed it up very well. If only it were easier/quicker getting them graded... I think to save hassle best getting graded for investment... whatever you are collecting OMP is fine too Comeaux great find on your '00's man! It's all good for our American Panda collector buddies!!
I should've said that I've found more than one reputable dealer, of course there are many in the world with great coins. As silverstar points out they also have to be willing to part with them, that's the key obviously. There's something thrilling to me of receiving an early issue OMP gleaming gem and finding it has no issues whatsoever... if you buy a graded MS68/69, that's all (I use the term loosely) it will likely ever be... for me it takes a little out of the hunt buying slabs but I still buy them. I recently bought a 5oz coin from the States, it's in transit and I hope to post pics of it here when it arrives... OMP with box and COA, 1000 mintage, off a new dealer for me but known to some here. Good communication, he guaranteed I'd be very happy with the coin so now alls there to do is sit and wait. There's a few guys who hang out at SS who will be reputable dealers one day if they're not that already.
I saw the 1988 too by the US seller but it wasn't the 1988 Master Grizzlies buys much more expensives pandas
A question to all panda masters here: Are these fake coins usually made from .999 AG or .999 AU, and therefore will pass the gravity test?
In my experience most fake Ag Pandas are comprised of copper/zinc/nickel and may be silver plated. There are however 'super fakes' which have been discussed here and over at the Chinese coin forum which are made from .999 Ag or Au, which will obviously pass any metallurgy tests. They will not pass closer scrutiny as to the aesthetics of the genuine coin, Pandas are extremely difficult to reproduce the fine details and also get the finish correct.
So are there people who actually have these "super fakes"? There certainly won't be any 1996 fakes made from 999 AG.
I had one of the pure gold fakes... I wouldn't call it a "super fake", since it was easily distinguishable from the real article. No need for magnification. A side by side comparison (fake Panda compared to legit photo) easily showed it to be phoney.
You're probably right, the super fakes will likely be the high end coins, bit pointless going to all the effort to counterfeit a <$200 coin. Comeaux may have more input regarding if anyone's actually seen or has one.
Yes 25grizzlies is correct that nobody is going to use pure silver or gold on a $200 coin but they would on a $10,000 coin, why not? If I was a counterfeiter I would not hesitate to spend $1,700 on an ounce of gold to create a coin that may sell for $15,000 or $35 in silver to create a coin that will easily sell for $1,000 to $3,000. I think the reason these coins have been referred to as "super counterfeits" is not because they are stunning coins but simply for the fact that they are created with pure silver or gold. I don't think these super counterfeits are prevalent *yet* but they have been spotted on occasion as referenced on CCF, other forums & I believe NGC may have had an article on it. With the explosion in price on many Modern Chinese Coins it is only an opinion of mine but I would not be surprised to see an increase in frequency of these "super counterfeits". I hope I am wrong.
Here is an outtake from an article on NGC about the term "super fake" This particular article relates to the Morgan Dollar but I'm sure we are all intelligent enough to realize that counterfeiters are not partial to one specific genre of numismatics. Where there is money to made, they will be present. It only makes sense to be aware these types of counterfeits may exist that is the only point I am making. NGC "It should be stated at the outset that superfake is not standard numismatic vernacular. In fact, we may have introduced the word just now for the first time. It is borrowed from the term supernote (or superdollar), widely used to describe very deceptive counterfeit US currency. By superfake, we mean a coin that is a deceptive counterfeit that could potentially fool professionals and advanced collectors. There are a great number of counterfeit coins that fall into this category. Their weight and level of design detail closely match authentic examples. Instead, specific die characteristics are used to identify them as counterfeits. A die characteristic is a tooling mark or depression on a coin that is shared commonly by all fake coins struck from that particular die. A number of documented counterfeits share specific flaws, called "repeating depressions," that are used by authenticators to identify them as fakes." At the articles end, NGC "But there are thousands upon thousands of different counterfeit coins. NGC has an extensive library of characteristic marks on fake coins that we use for reference, and senior graders have thousands of them committed to memory. Truly, the only way to develop that kind of mental resource is to look at hundreds of coins every day for decades. Even still, new superfakes with their own sets of characteristics, like this 1884-S dollar, are being made today." Knowledge is power ...
These are the type that have me concerned ... http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=1235 From the article in the link above ... "Unlike many other Chinese counterfeits, the technical specifications on this coin are excellent: the silver is close to the correct fineness, the weight is correct, and there is no discrepancy in size from the original. The counterfeits are produced with high quality minting technology, which is not always the case with Chinese counterfeits."
