The mintage on bullion coins seem to be shrinking with each passing month. Is it that bad out there? 10,000 (don't like them. just sharing) https://www.apmex.com/product/166607/2018-barbados-1-oz-silver-caribbean-seahorse-bu
The millennials hate physical stuff. Anything that can't be stored on an iPhone is bad. Why buy an archaic 1oz coin when you can buy get a cool ฿0.0020701 instead?
That's because low mintage is a sales argument. To compensate (total sales = same), they add designs. So instead of a production of 5 designs mintage 1000 they produce 1000 designs mintage 5. Rare! Buy! Hurry!
I concur. Eagles are eagles, pandas are pandas, maples are maples, brits are brits, rounds are rounds, etc etc. The stuff like "limited edition" or "first strike" or "oriental border" or "animal series" or "early release" or "anniversary" are just gimmicks that are unlikely to fetch you much, if any, real added value when you go to sell (esp not enough extra value to profit well, considering the hugely inflated premiums you will paying on those when buying). If you really love the look of a Canadian maple with a cougar or superman "S" on it or an oriental border Britannia, go ahead and spend an extra $3 to $5 on it and display it... just don't do that very often and don't expect those to sell for any more than their basic govt counterpart coins of the same year and weight when you go to sell them. Sad but true. If you doubt that the vast majority of the special editions of govt coins don't hold premium value long term - despite being purchased for much more, then bring some basic and some "premium" govt coins to your shop and ask what they'll pay. Get ready for a real wake up call! Less optimally, you can also look at completed sold (not the unsold listing) ebay listings (keep in mind eBay/PayPal charges sellers about 10% or more on transactions, and they also had to pay for insured shipping!). I say buy what you like, what you can find good deals on, and what you feel will remain highly liquid in your area and the market overall. That usually means bars and generic rounds you can get at/near spot and your country's most basic coins which you can usually get with $1-$3 premium (which you can hopefully get back on sell side). Avoiding ugly designs on rounds or badly toned or scratched coins is wise (don't take such coins at all... or maybe unless you can get them below spot). They will be hard to sell unless it is a real hot silver market. Keeping your silver coins in air tite capsules to keep them shiny, minimally toned, and generally good/excellent looking helps for selling quick and at top value. The capsules are less than 50c each when you buy in volume and worth the boosted confidence it gives your buyers in terms of the coin look, the fact they get the capsule, and the fact that you cared for it. Capsules are cheap, and they're certainly a buyer's tiebreaker on giving you a certain price... or whether to buy yours versus another guy's coin lot. Unless you really love to display them, definitely don't bother with grading your coins or buying graded ones... like the "special edition" coins, that graded market is a narrow market that will take a long time to sell in and is very tough to profit in. Since you are likely to overpay (you will notice the graded and the special editions often go hand-in-hand), it is very hard to profit... and you could have much more quickly sold many basic coins in the same timespan. I'd walk right out of coin shops that try to upsell or trade you on numismatic and graded stuff when you are there to buy or sell basic coins (that numismatic stuff is their highest profit margin and your worst chance to turn profit, but many try to push it on you).
There sure do seem to be a lot of suckers for the semi-Numi and numismatic stuff out there. Some making thousand and millions of that stuff. You’re mixing too much in the bag of tricks. There are those who are stackers, some who are collectors, some who are both, some who only like the semi numi stuff (kooks, swans, tiger/Phoenix, etc...)...depending on how savvy one is, these have ALL done well. To say one is better than the other, that’s just an opinion, which you are entitled to, but I’ve personally done well in these categories...
Aside from new and inexperienced buyers (ie, very hot silver market), most have learned their lesson on these. I think there are generally very few numismatic buyers. The myth of high value and rarity is a core keystone to all forms of collectibles, and in most cases, it is smoke and mirrors. Yes, I realize a few numismatic coins can do well, but the vast majority only do well for the initial minter or dealer. After that, you are counting on finding buyers for the numi and premium stuff. The time trying to broker those deals is the hard part. Not only is it harder to find that stuff at a decent price, it is MUCH harder to find buyers where you can turn a profit. That is because you are getting out of the realm of precious metals as a commodity or as money... and into the realm of collectibles (just as for antiques, vintage cars, sports cards, historical memorabilia, etc). Prices on collectibles can be set at whatever inflated figure a book says, a dealer tags it as, or seller wants to try on ebay... the true price is ultimately only what someone will pay. Again, try selling some premium coins at a local shop (even a shop that sells a lot of numi); you will see that they offer you little if any over the same basic govt coins of that year and weight. This is because they know well that the premium re-sell coins are likely to sit in their shop for sale for years since they are much less liquid and have a tough time getting any significant increase over their common counterparts. Baseball cards, collectible statues, Magic cards, numi coins, or any other collectible is the same: the vast majority of the profit is made on the brand new products being sold. The sale of used product is slow and much less liquid. I have the same conversation with a couple coin and pawn shops in my area approximately monthly: "Hi, got any silver eagles?" "Regular or special ones?" "Just regular ones." "We have a few. We also have some special ones." "Cool, I will take many/all of the regular ones." (the regular ones are all new inventory they had traded in since my last visit... and the special ones are basically all the same that have been there for months and months - many for as long as I've been coming to the stores) "Ok, cya soon." ...In the time it takes to find and complete sets of "rare" coins as well as to find buyers for them, you could have easily turned over much more volume of basic silver rounds, ASEs, maples, etc. Look at completed aucitons on ebay and you will see tons of premium coin auctions unsold, relisted at lower price, unsold again, and taken off or finally settling for a best offer. On the other hand, basic rounds or govt issue lots typically sell on the first try and sell for spot or slight premiums similar to what they were bought for. Many, many people have bought a lot of coins and plan to sell a lot of coins someday. I would highly suggest that after buying only a handful, metal buyers try to sell them (don't have to finish the sale, but just honestly test the market occasionally); it will definitely change your outlook on "primo" and "rare" coins. I think of it as similar to cars or guns. Will a dealer, esp new item dealer, charge you MUCH more for special trim package, signature edition, sport setup, alternate color or leather or moon roof and etc, etc etc? Oh yeah... that is where their highest profit margins are, not base models. Will a buyer pay significantly more years later (or even immediately) for that primo stuff? Very doubtful... they might offer a tad bit more for a special edition verus a comparable basic one if they like the leather or the increased power, but ultimately, they just want a gun that goes bang or a car that gets them to work. You could've made much more profit and much quicker sales by selling a half dozen basic 2005 Honda Civics that ran well versus a 2005 Camaro special edition super sport pace car. It would be the same for a half dozen basic houses versus a granite and mahogany 8 bedroom mini- mansion. That's just a fact. Coins are largely the same... they are much more predictible and liquid when you buy them as a commodity or as money. When you get over into the market of coins as collectibles, you pay premiums and are introducing sentiment and luck of finding the right emotional buyer into the mix. This is how Silver Eagle Silver Shield and other mints try to make money... they do unique designs and "mini mintage" to hype that theirs will be rare and sought after in the future. It might be sull coins or super heros or naked ladies or whatever. Either way, it is trendy and rare and bla bla bla. Hey, it beats selling for the price of generic rounds, huh? Well, assuming you aren't in love with the design yourself, it is not in your best interest as the buyer. Why not just buy a poster of art you enjoy and buy basic govt rounds or generic rounds? Therefore, only buy the fancy stuff if you personally love it and don't care if you probably won't get the premium back (so you win right away), because in the vast majority of situations, you will NOT see the added price tag returned to you on the back end. Bear in mind that the rich mainly buy assets that generate income, and the middle class mainly buy consumer goods and liabilities they mistake to be valuable assets (the poor just buy basic necessities to survive). Are you buying coins as an investment and a hedge against inflation... or buying them in hopes that people like the design? Those are totally different things, and there is no reason at all to buy precious metals if you want to do collectibles. You could do art, antiques, sports stuff, etc etc etc which are much rarer and more limited. The only reason for coins as collectibles is that a buyer is scared and likes the idea that the metals are more liquid and won't ever be worth less than their spot value. It creates a weird hybrid which has neither the of liquidity and investment potential of basic commodity/money metal or the upside of collectibles (since the "rare" coins have similar and much more common counterparts). Soooo... coming full circle, you missed well have just bought basic coins to begin with and not taken the risk of premiums/collectibles. ...Is there the rare model from time to time which becomes highly sought after and worth holding onto (1964 Impala, Colt Python revolver, stingray Corvette, etc)? Yes, but that is the exception and very tough to predict at the time when those were selling brand new, so don't go deluding yourself into thinking that's the rule. The worst case scenerio is when people buy numismatic coins or other collectibles that they don't particularly like but hope to sell for profit, and they are highly likely to lose doubly (didn't ever enjoy it AND also lost money or failed to gain as much as they could have if they'd skipped the collectible stuff and stayed with basics). GL
I just realized that was quite a rant, lol. Basically, I just think that being over-sold on 'numismatics and collector coins will make you money' is one of the main things that turns off new enthusiasts of gold/silver. They obviously get burnt and get turned off. I don't like to see that stuff perpetuated. ...Well, I guess the main turnoffs are that and overly dramatic end-of-the-world nonsense. Ha
Good stuff. I don’t mind the rant. Heck, I welcome it. I think you and I are the only ones left on this forum. Lol. I definitely agree in general with what you said. However, having been in this space over the last 8 years, I have learned a lot. I have several buckets where I put my funds regarding PM’s (as mentioned above: generic govt. bullion, semi, numi, and collectibles). I have done well in each of these categories from an investment point of view. I’m only buying generic govt bullion currently because spot is so low, so I get more ounces vs. kooks, lunar, swans, etc...and will play the spot price game with those. The semi’s like the kooks, swans, tigers/phoenix, etc...I hold longer term. If you buy these at the right price they will do fantastic (most for me have). As an example are the kooks from 1992 - 2006 (bought them around the 34ish mark, and even with spot so low, they’re still selling at or above the price I bought. Or the more recent swan #1 and #2...if you got them at 24/26 dollar mark, you’re doing okay, if you need to sell. I think one can go on with examples from the semi category too. And then you have the pure collectible. As an example, the Southern Sky 1 oz Gold with a mintage of 750 had a purchase price of 1550...I’ve done okay with those. However, most of my ‘pure collectibles’ are pieces that I like and will most likely be family heirlooms...like medals I have from the civil war (Abraham Lincoln pieces) time period. I agree that it is easier to get burned in the collectible market, if you don’t know what you are doing. And trust me I’ve had my fair share of ‘lessons learned’ over the years, and I hope to remember them to keep my emotions in check. Anyway, I think there are many buckets to invest in the precious metals: generic coins/rounds/bars (cheapest stuff), generic govt. bullion, semi-numi bullion, and collectibles. I personally stay away from the cheapest stuff. That’s just me. And I have my reasons. And I also throw money at ownx.com and miners.
Bars, general govt issue and Some Perth Mint semi’s is enough for me. Feel more confident with art after that.
'The millennials hate physical stuff. Anything that can't be stored on an iPhone is bad. Why buy an archaic 1oz coin when you can buy get a cool ฿0.0020701 instead?' Agreed. But there is a substantial body of boomer crypto geeks who are bullion bugs. It's why I'm here!
Thanks for the thread it was a good read of different opinions. I only got into silver this year and have been buying bullion bars and rounds pretty much at closest to spot I can get, but even then I started with 1 kg bars, then 10 and 5 oz, and then bullion coins. But when down to coins I wasn't interested in my local/national mint coins (kangaroos), as I think they are ugly, canadian maples are pretty low premium so bunch of them, and then ASE's. I got about 500oz in and watching silver prices the whole time realised more and more that this is a long term commodity investment, I still believe Silver is undervalued as a commodity, and on top of hedging against inflation I believe there will be gains to be made the next time the stock market crashes. The last month I've started buying, I don't know if it has a class, but 999 fine Silver rounds, what I consider beautiful designs, limited mintage, licensed design, first in a series where possible, not available to buy in my country (Australia). Examples: KOMSCO chiwoo, tiger, zi:sun. Alphonse Mucha collection, destiny knight, select SilverShield proof-likes, and proof likes from other U.S private mints. All of these coins are listed in Australia on Ebay for significantly over the buy/shipping/duty cost I paid in bulk, even when still on the market internationally, my plan it to wait till they are out of stock, or play my bet on a series becoming popular, and cashing in later. I'm not interested in pure numismatics, I like having some sort of underlying value to hedge against bad calls, and I'm not paying numismatic prices, it's somewhere in between. I understand that this investment is completely different from my silver bullion investment, being much more speculative. However, I don't consider it a very risky investment given that I think the base metal is undervalued, sure I'm buying less weight of silver than I could for the same money, but stagnant/decreasing silver prices for the short/medium term makes the risk seem worthwhile. Anyways, I probably haven't thought it out, and I am making emotional decisions on the designs I like, but does silver only have to be a commodity, can't it also be a medium for art? Does beauty/limited availability just not apply silver, does it not apply to gold. Anyway, I am well aware that I am making a bet, and getting into hobby territory, I'm prepared to be proven wrong, in which case I'll just hold onto it.
Unless you personally enjoy the coins and view them to be worth their added premium, this is very dangerous thinking, as I alluded to above. You need to keep in mind that more and more "special" and "limited" coins are coming out every day. Some things like "first strike" and "early release" are total sales scams which appear to be labeled and official looking graded coins yet are generally not graded and are therefore worth no more than their standard counterparts. Sure, interesting designs like queen beasts or Star Wars or America the Beautiful 5oz or etc etc are pretty cool. So are some others, like Libertads or pandas, that tend to go for more than other country basic issue coins. However, when you are getting into substantial premiums and hoping to see those return when you go to sell, you had better like the designs quite a bit. They will be nice looking or be relatively unique, but like many "limited" things, they are "limited" to however many they can sell at the mint... sad but true. Buyer demand make some of them seem like hot commodities for awhile, but then the cool designs of the past get buried in future designs also... and past "limited" ones are back to selling right around spot value. They might be listed and price tagged high (since people don't like to sell for a loss), but they are typically eventually sold for around spot or the same as their govt issue coutnerparts of basic issue in the same year. It is sad for the sellers who paid high premiums, but they took that risk... and that is how the game almost invariably works. The truly hilarious part is that those sellers are often dumping those old 'premium' coins to buy current year premium mint ones, lol. ...I think this is unfortunately the #1 turn off for silver and gold coin collecting: Newbies buy special or graded or etc etc inflated coins that are hyped up by the seller as a "good investment" and "rare" and then they end up having buyer's remorse when they realize that, while it may be cool looking or sounding, it isn't worth much/any more than the standard govt issue ones of that year. The coins will look fine when they look at price tags at coin shows and websites, but when they actually do sell, it hits home that they took a sizable loss. That remorse means they are quickly very turned off to buying and stacking after that. It is a problem, but since "promo" and "special" coins are the dealers' main margin makers, it isn't going away anytime soon.
What I've seen more than anything else that turns people off to precious metals, is the incessant hype of many stackers who make untrue assertions like "silver to da moon tomorrow", "silver is like an insurance policy", "silver is and always will be money", ad nausea. When people realize that none of that is true, they rightfully feel they've been duped.
