Ideological Consistency, and lack thereof

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Roswell Crash Survivor, Apr 30, 2020.

  1. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    In the 9+ years I've spent here on Silver Stackers, I've seen ad finitim repeat performances of grandiose denouncements of:
    • "excessive government interference in the free market"
    • "socialist handouts for bludgers"
    • "soviet-style state controls"
    After all of the previous huffing, puffing and posturing by a number of denizens here on Current Events,

    I have yet to see any more than token protests about the A$130 Billion spent on JobKeeper & JobSeeker wage subsidies, government-subsidized low-interest loans and loan guarantees for SMEs.

    Where are the same denizens, whom if they had even a modicum of Ideological Consistency as free-market absolutists, would outright reject all public assistance or subsidy?

    It is almost like these same denizens have no problem with public spending when they're the beneficiary of such largess.

    As such, their silence and inaction when they have 'skin in their game' reveal that their ideological convictions are no more than skin-deep, unceremoniously discarded into the nearest ditch upon the slightest of inconvenience.

    Utterly Pathetic.

    cash_1000_check.jpg
     
  2. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Well Ayn Rand DID enjoy welfare in her final days.

    And argued that her life long opposition to welfare made her and other opponents of welfare the only people who could unhypocritically accept welfare.
     
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  3. GoldenEye

    GoldenEye Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    There's probably less than one in a thousand who would not accept free money if there's no strings attached. I think it's just human nature to try to get what you want with a minimum of effort. It's why we started making tools and using fire, and invented all the other things that make life easier.
     
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  4. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm trying to figure out what more you want?
    I am filthy about it, and have stated such multiple times on here. Easy for me to state, because I've never (in my life) been eligible for any Govt. handout.
    But token protests is about as far as I can utilise an internet forum in that regard. o_O

    But if you want tit-for-tat left vs right type bickering, then this springs to mind:

     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
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  5. monopolize

    monopolize Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    For once I think they're doing the right thing this time. At least they're bailing out the little guys and not the cronies.
     
  6. Ag bullet

    Ag bullet Well-Known Member

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    i've been in the workforce for 20 years and have never been eligible for any govt welfare, i've always funded it for others who often don't share my work ethic or have made poor choices and the govt takes up the slack.

    now i'm forced to stay home and look after kids who can't go to school because of a govt decision. if they offer me a jobkeeper payment of $750 THEY don't leave me with much choice. that's the difference here. if it wasn't forced upon me i wouldn't be getting welfare.

    oh and thanks for letting me access some of MY super.
     
  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Edited.

    For the benefit of those genuinely interested in the answer, which leaves @Roswell Crash Survivor and @JulieW out:

    1. A definition of theft:

    Theft is the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of its use.

    2. Taxation is theft as the rightful property of the owner is taken without their consent meaning they are deprived of it and deprived of using it to meet their own needs/demands in a manner in which they see fit.

    3. Victims of theft can rightfully expect that their stolen property be returned or if not, expect some form of compensation.

    4. Accepting welfare payments can be morally justified AS LONG as you accept the validity of points 2 and 3 above.

    Get over to the MMT thread as well which explains how fkd our current economic system is - which is entirely the fault of the State and its power to issue a monopoly fiat currency.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  8. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not happy about the spending as its huge, Ive always been a believer in governments having balanced budgets and them running in the black over the red, However this is a weird situation where its forced on regular people tobe Unemployed.
    So they damn well need money to live.
    If people are going tobe forced to be unemployed some one needs to give them money. Its not like they can go get another job so its not a bunch of lazy people on well fare, and mass unemployment and millions of people living on the streets not being able to feed them selves would effect every one even those employed. So on this occasion I think many people understand the reason and have had to except this is going to come at a bloody huge cost to the government budget.
    Remember before going on the rant about those receiving this money as unfair, well they were forced tobe Unemployed and that is more unfair. Im sure those forced tobe unemployed who were on full time jobs would prefer their regular wage over a shitty $1500 a fortnight, but thats better than $0 and being forced into unemployment.
    and those currently employed who arent receiving any money directly are Still gaining from the stimulus, Likely if millions are unemployed with no income, that would be millions of people not spending money that is keeping others employed, so unemployment would snow ball and even the so called essential workers would find them selves Unemployed.
    To The OP before bagging people who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own excepting Jobseeker, think how well you would do with no income if you were forced to lose your job.

    PS i dont get any money, But i know people who do and they feel shit about getting these payments but they need to or else their family would be on the streets.

    and yes this is socialist style, . We are getting a taste of socialism and it fucken sucks and most people dont like it, but just like socialism its forced apon people and they arent given any choice.

    And Also If money wasnt wasted in the past On useless socialist schemes, the government would have continued to run in the black and likely had the money for a situation like this, instead putting the budget in mega debt on top of previous debt.
    So this actually proves those right who said we should stop government spending and save money for any future problems instead of wasting it on socialist feel good schemes.
    If the gov didnt waste money in previous years then this would have been less of an issue.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  9. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    She did, and she was right.
     
  10. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    FOr years the socialists have been saying , Whats the point of having a surplus? as money is made tobe spent, lol.

    Well now you know why governments should run with a surplus and not spending money on feel good schemes and on big government. So yes for years Allot conservatives have said money should be saved for a rainy day, and Im sure we can all agree this is a rainy day, and If they did have the money saved for a raining day, we could have funded this with out going into massive debt ontop of the debt we already had from wasted money.
    So to OP your point is rubbish, this actually gives more merit to Conservatives who said stop the wasteful spending and get the budget into the black.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  11. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    So what is the argument against welfare when it can be justified from each direction.
     
  12. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't have a problem with welfare. I support a number of welfare programs. I'm doing this one at the moment: https://www.thepushupchallenge.com.au/

    I have a problem with taxation. It means I'm coerced into accepting the State issued monopoly fiat currency.
     
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  13. forgedinfire

    forgedinfire Member

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    It's the abuse of welfare that's the problem, I don't think anyone really has an issue with people that genuinely need it. But people that have 3 kids and 2 dogs before they are ready, who smoke and drink are just being irresponsible and everyone else shouldn't have to support that.
     
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  14. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I think you are forgetting that the first 2 rounds of the hand-outs were directed at those ALREADY ON WELFARE.
    This is what I am filthy about - the first to receive are the most unproductive, and by definition are also the last to be affected by unemployment. :mad:
    Totally unjustifiable (and almost unforgiveable) by the current government.
     
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  15. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    It makes sense, as much as it sucks from principle point of view as it does feel like they dont deserve it, the whole Idea of giving to those who are already on welfare is its guaranteed they will spend it aka waste it.
    For stimulus tobe effective it needs tobe spent, doesnt matter what they spend it on, its money circulating.
    If you give that to say a middle class person with half a brain, It would end up being banked.
    Which is where it would have gone if they gave it to me lol.
    And tobe fair not every one one wellfare is a bludger. many are sure, but lots of single mums, old people, people with disabilities, are all people who couldnt afford to keep the money and save it in the bank, so they will spend it also.
    Ill use my self as an example of why not to give middle class the money, I Still have the $1k Rudd gave me in 2008 sitting in my bank lol
    So yes it sucks as dole bludgers dont deserve it but they spent it. Allot of the criticism with Rudds package was it was given to people who didnt spend it, aka middle class.

    Now we are talking about the first round that was lump sum package, that was a far smaller amount compared to the Jobkeeper thing, but that was completely needed as people were forced into unemployment.

    So yes I agree with your last comment on principle but It makes sense giving it to the wasteful side of town if you need it spent, even it its on booze and smokes.
    It makes me Cringe seeing so much money spent and getting into so much debt.
    I just wish the government did the right thing over the last decade or so and saved money for a time like this, rather than the waste that has forced us into crazy debt and this has compounded it for future generations to pay off.
    The Lefty types have now had been given a lesson on why a surplus is a good thing and why there should be money left for rainy days. Because there would be no money left for anything if we had such a crisis in the future.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  16. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    eating from the mountain of unjustly forced collection from the unwilling
     
  17. Jason1

    Jason1 Well-Known Member

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    Yer but your a communist so you dont have aright to comment on this one mate. lol

    We are having a sample of your shitty system and it fucken sucks
     
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  18. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't have a problem with taxation, just excessive taxation and political slush funds and feel good drains.
     
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  19. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Since when did Singapore become communist?!!!
    As far as I understand they are centre-right?
     
  20. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Doesn't make sense to me.... never will.
    No attempt at justification will change my mind.
    If it was a small handout in comparison (as you correctly point out), then that would reinforce my argument - that it made SFA difference in the scheme of things, except maybe bought a couple more votes, and rewarded the undeserving.
    There are other ways of getting cash into circulation - it should have been handed to businesses that bore the financial brunt.
     
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