Hong Kong and Hong Kongs Future

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by mrsilverservice, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    If you have not noticed, ever since the HK protests started, there are now protests all over the world. A couple hundred protesters in Iraq have died in just the last couple of days. What China is doing is more dangerous than it appears. Of course, it won't affect the US because the US ecomomy doesn't depend on China. It’s the other way round, China needs the US to keep tens of millions of workers employed.

    There is a huge property bubble in HK and an even bigger one in China. If this blows, all hell will break lose because the HKD and RMB will devalue and nothing can stop it from happening, not even if the trade war ends immediately.

    I’ve been warning about this since early this year, before the HK protests started, and everything which I fear is happening. The trade war is only “noise” and a reaction to future risks, and the real crisis is the social economic situation in China/HK has become untenable.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  2. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    .

    It was probably over a month ago. And just to put the record straight, she was probably dead before they tossed her into the water
     
  3. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It’s one of the unsavoury sides of Asian political culture I guess: maintaining public order often takes precedence over the lives of individuals.
     
  4. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    the struggle is everywhere, Chile Bolivia Brasil Pakistan Iraq Ukraine etc
     
  5. Aurora et luna

    Aurora et luna Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Looks like the locals are getting pretty annoyed with these wannabe freedom fighters

     
  6. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I actually see this as feudalism. Feudalism which ironically the founder of modern China Sun Yat Sen and the founder of the Republic of China tried to eradicate in 1900.

    Europeans also shoot people and so do Americans in the past. You cannot do this today because of social media, the fight continues on the web even if you managed to control the streets. As the saying goes, the pen is mightier the sword and this is true in the long run.

    To counter this, governments try to control the web and media with propaganda but propaganda makes people stupid, and over time the nation will lose out in innovation and once you lose the technological edge, you will lose the whole battle.
     
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  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Definitely feudal mentality.
     
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  8. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I guess you finally realise what is happening. It’s nothing to do with democracy or communism or human rights. Communism is a western ideology, not Chinese. If you’re interested, I’ll recommend watching the Chinese series “Emperor of the Han Dynasty”. I’m not able to find a fully english subbed version online but it will explain it all.
     
  9. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I disagree with you there.

    It has everything to do with democracy and communism, Xi himself has said that he wants to return to communist principles with a Chinese flavour.

    Communism, democracy, religion, capitalism, rights etc are human ideologies, they’re as appropriate to tribes in the Amazon as they are to factory workers in Guangzhou.

    China hasn’t had its reformation yet. When that comes, it’ll be a democratic nation. Xi is fighting against that reformation.
     
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  10. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    There's no concept of communism or socialism in China before the 20th century. The core Chinese ideologies of Taoism and Confucianism don't preach equality. Christianity and Islam on the other hand preaches equality or at least some form of equality. The state ideology in Singapore is based on Confucianism. At the same time, Singapore is more socialist than China, so China maybe looking towards this direction.

    Yes, HK is everything that China shouldn't be hence it must be "cured" of the disease.
     
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  11. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    South Korean government in the 80s had fondness of drowning people live, conversely protesters had a habit of light
    Doubt it’s got anything to maintaining order. More to do with who has the power and keeping it even if it is for short term.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Hong Kong was massacred even today. If Chinese government machined gunned thousands protestors, doubtful if much would change. iPhones are more important than lives.

    how many western allies have done more than lip service about the potential thousands of deaths of Kurds to come or ten thousand already dead Ukraine.

    Just 39 years ago, USA nor any western powers decried 2000 plus South Korean protesters getting machined gunned in broad daylight.

    HK as a business gateway to China is finished.
    Most international enterprises in Hong Kong would seriously be looking at moving out.
    if any planning to open a new office in HK that would be shelved.
    Tourist People can’t get travel insurance

    even if protesters calm down, what will happen again next year anniversary, 5 years, 10 years or near the time of handover?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  12. Oddjob

    Oddjob Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Some interesting points you raise.

    I doubt the PRC would gun down HK protestors given:

    1) HK is an international city with many expats living there for work and as reported in recent months, some expats living in HK were / are also protesting. What a international furor there would be if a non HK (PRC citizen)....an American maybe... was shot dead by PRC / HK security forces.

    2) Technology since Tiananmen Square has evolved greatly and all we see from Tiananmen Square era is a few pics of a man in front of a tank (yes one can google more images), but if smartphones had been around at the time, the PRC would have IMO may have not carried out the 1989 crack down in the same way given the whole incident could be broadcast live / recorded by thousands of people. Same for the ROK protests of 1980....but lets remember 1980 was still the "Cold War" thus the US wanted the ROK as a satellite state of the US to confront the Communists thus they overlooked a few things in order to maintain the balance / US influence in the region...could they do it now with smartphones???

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the PRC is using / stoking the HK protests (with their left hand) as that is drawing the media's attention. All the time PRC's right hand is continuing their South China Sea takeover, building a new payments systems to bypass SWIFT, developing relations with / funding African nations for political influence etc etc......which mainstream media is not covering. Quite a smart play by the PRC.
     
  13. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Likewise pre-reformation in the West, very few philosophers gave much thought to equality, they didn’t call it the Dark Ages for nothing. ;)

    My knowledge of Chinese history is rudimentary at best, you know the old saying about the back of a postage stamp? :) But I recall reading that back in the early days when Confucianism was emerging that there was another school of thought challenging it. I can’t recall the name but I can find out later, you may even know it. Confucians were the elite whereas this other school had its roots in the working class. The Confucians murdered the vast majority of the priests and scholars of this other school and forced their values onto the populace. On fear of death.

    It’s interesting you say Confucianism is the State ideology in Singapore. Growing up in the 70’s and 80’s in Australia we were taught that Singapore was a police state, stuff about chewing gum and growing long hair etc. It’s even been penned in a song by Little River Band, the old girl @JulieW would know the song. Mind you, that was in the day when Australians cared about freedom and liberty, times have changed.

    I guess that you and I have differing view on Xi’s motives, the outcomes are the same though.
     
  14. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Isn’t that the same thing? Maintain order under the premise of the “public good” in an attempt to retain power?

    Xi Jinping has a two-prong sword in order to keep his citizens under control, appealing to Chinese nationalism (you know, centre-of the-universe and the sun-shines-out-of-my-arse stuff) which has always prized public order above individuality and propping up the Chinese economy by driving up domestic consumption. And the hilt of that two-pronged sword is a system built on surveillance, social licences, threats, fear and murder.
     
  15. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Apparently the kid is okay and recovering, he’s also got an appetite for chocolate Koala biscuits. Never heard of them.
     
  16. Oddjob

    Oddjob Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Still is in the main ie a one party state...yes it's easy transit through Changi airport, the city is nice and safe, the city has mass civil development projects which are great but try being in the opposition political party up against the Lee family dynasty. The use (aka abuse) of the law to stifle opposition political voices is their key weapon...."Say something about us and we'll sue you into bankruptcy".
     
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  17. Oddjob

    Oddjob Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I acknowledge this....fair call but would they randomly fire en-mass into a crowd shooting / killing en-mass was where I was driving my point .....??


    Seems like a "A - Typical" play on an overseas icon.
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    there is no mention of public good, I doubt Chinese has Sun shines out of my ass syndrome, China in general have a national inferiority complex, akin to India.

    as for threats more like to get based in Sydney than China until.
    Murder rate I’m not sure who has a higher one, but would be similar to Australia. Though no one comes close USA, likely the most dangerous place to live in any developed economy.
     
  19. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    ‘that is not gunning down lol. If the officer was me, I would have emptied the clip on him and his friend. Reloaded to make sure their dead or anyone else coming closer.
     
  20. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The Chinese communist party isn’t a narrow group. there are elections within the party.
    Political faction likely range from middle right to far left
     

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