"Globalisation"

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Old Codger, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    "Are you willing to change your mind on your previous assertion that increasing imports causes more unemployment ?"


    The point I have been unsuccessfully trying to make, is that a Melbourne (TV?) factory that closes in Australia, with that production moving to China, INCREASES unemployment. The Australian workers are out of a job!

    It also increases Chinese EXPORTS and our IMPORTS.

    OC
     
  2. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    We understand that. The other parts of the equation that you are downplaying are that the people buying the TVs now have more money in their pockets because of the cost savings. They can then spend this money on new products and services. These new areas of demand allow new opportunities for the unemployed TV factory workers to get new jobs in whole new areas of life that the Australian economy couldn't previously afford (say takeaway dinners or better quality professional footy players).

    To deny the consumers their savings from their TV purchases is to deny them the ability to have TVs AND a takeaway dinner while enjoying high quality Friday night football.

    (And then there are the benefits to the Chinese workers who now have better incomes than previously.)
     
  3. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    ....and all those workers have LESS to spend!


    ...and spend taxpayers dollars as the Dole, instead, still a lot less that the old take home pay.

    OC
     
  4. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Or the money they saved buying the Chineses made TV is then spent on eBay buying another item from China because it is a hell of a lot cheaper to buy it from there than here in Australia? Cuts out the retail spending here so you also loose more jobs in retail.

    Then you have lost the job here in Australia, which has now gone to China, the money you saved and spent on more products which have come from China as well and therefore there is 0% benefit for Australia. The money that is spent then increases Australia's debt levels because we import more and more items from overseas and make less here as well as exporting less.

    Why do we have this huge debt everyone talks about? There is a reason for it. You can't just keep saying because politicians are crap.

    It is like the financial sector, they have all these great ideas to make money for everyone and they put all these plans into action and screw the pooch big time and everyone looses except a few at the top.
     
  5. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    "Why do we have this huge debt everyone talks about? There is a reason for it. You can't just keep saying because politicians are crap."


    I think it may be because they are spending a LOT more than they are taking in.


    OC
     
  6. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Exactly, spending a hell of a lot more than is coming in, every house has a big screen TV, Air conditioning seems to have become a necessity, everyone wants a new car. Where do all the TV's, Air conditioners and new cars come from? (Some of the cars - a small minority and soon it will be none come from Australia)

    We import nearly everything and are exporting bugger all compared to imports apart from what we pull out of the ground or farm. We need to import less and export more.
     
  7. SilverSaviour

    SilverSaviour New Member

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    Lets just backtrack a little.

    Focusing on an industry leaving the country (like car making) and only talking about lost jobs is only looking at one small part of the picture.

    What you are saying is that you prefer that a couple of thousand people don't lose their jobs every now and then as plants close down (who will all get new ones again anyway) to the ENTIRE ECONOMY benefiting from cheaper imported cars.

    You only see the lost jobs (which are regained anyway). You need to see the whole economy and not just a small part.
     
  8. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No, no, no. We have more workers available to build and/or supply EXTRA stuff. The biggest constraint to our ability to all live like kings is labour. Anything that saves labour in our current economy (be it better production processes, better machines or accessing cheaper overseas production processes) means that we can put that labour to work producing MORE stuff.

    Paying people to not work (including certain forms of welfare) or making high regulatory hurdles preventing people getting into new work is the drain on our productive potential. Whilesoever as their are unmet wants there will ALWAYS be new demand for new jobs.

    It's all about supply. If we can have TVs AND spare labour then we can always employ that spare labour in new ventures. This has been consistently proven time and time again over the decades and centuries by the simple fact that we are still have near full employment despite outsourcing millions of jobs overseas. As Say's Law (broadly) says - supply creates its own demand. Increasing our ability to supply HAS to be beneficial.
     
  9. Silverthorn

    Silverthorn Well-Known Member

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    you're assuming exports increase though from the freed labour?
     
  10. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Ok sounds good, what is all this spare labour going to do?

    Edit: Apart from the unemployed there are now a hell of a lot of people who are under employed i.e working only 2 or 3 days a week.
     
  11. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Looks like we are at the 'Agree to disagree' stage, so thanks for the discussion.


    OC
     
  12. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No. OC was assuming this by the simple fact that he said the Melbourne TV factory was closing with the production moving to China. How can the production move if the Chinese didn't actually want what we were producing in exchange? If the Chinese produced TVs but didn't want anything of ours in exchange then we wouldn't even be trading in the first place and the Melbourne factory would presumably still be open.

    Anything that the consumers want them to do in exchange for the things that they make. Some can build and maintain the takeaway store, others can prepare the food and packaging while others can go train 5 days a week to be professional footy players instead of only once a week in order to provide the rest of the producers with entertainment. Every day since the industrial revolution (and since the dawn of civilisation) people have had to answer this question. That is the role of the entrepreneurs and capitalists and they get rewarded by the rest of society for creating new jobs and finding the new products and services that we want but previously couldn't afford until someone gathered together the spare resources in such a way that they could now be produced.

    Why? What are you disagreeing on?
    Do you not like productivity improvements?
    Do you not trade with others around you?
    As said before, globalisation is nothing but the division of labour happening on a wider scale. Globalisation produced the pencil. Do you think that each of us should be 100% self-sufficient and not trade with others and produce our own pencils? Do you think that it is better to use unproductive people in your business when you have the option to employ a more productive person?
     
  13. Byron

    Byron Guest

    if you can't see the difference you must be blind!


    It's well known that participation rate, unemployment rate and other metrics were calculated differently and much more honestly in 1978 compared to 2013.

    You also conveniently forget to mention that the real unemployment rate (as per Roy Morgan research) is closer to 10% and the UNDEREMPLOYMENT rate is another 15%

    Casual, temp and contract employment is much more common today, leading to less job security compared to 78 and prior.

    your argument that things are better today because of globalisation has FAILED miserably.
     
  14. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Anything consumers want is manufactured in countries such as China, food such as frozen veg is imported from Vietnam because it is cheaper, same as Basa you see in the supermarket and prawns from Vietnam because it is so cheap. Playing football or training to be footballers? I bet they will have a TV, stereo, carpet, sink, air conditioner, car etc which will come from where? If they play football they are basically doing nothing productive. By that logic. I may as well become a fisherman and fish 5 days a week but only recreationally. Maybe I could study interpretive dance?

    You are right we have a lot of spare resources being people's time since they are underemployed or unemployed but what will they actually do? It is no use saying they will do something but I'm not sure what.

    It is basic maths what you spend you need to have coming in or you end up with a deficit.
     
  15. SilverSaviour

    SilverSaviour New Member

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    Please provide evidence for your claim. Starting an assertion with "It's well known" isn't going to get you anywhere, whether what you say is true or not.
    Lets compare how these things were calculated at both times, then make an informed decision then

    And what was the real unemployment rate (as per Roy Morgan research) 35 years ago? Again lets compare apples to apples.
    Not just that, does this difference change the argument at all? We are talking about a period with many many more entrants into the job market (women)

    This is because people are preferring higher wages to job security.
    Thats why contractors generally get more than salaried workers, they trade job security and benefits for more money.

    You haven't shown that at all.

    Anyway, this part of the discussion wasn't about proving the benefit of free trade, it was about refuting the previous claim that unemployment is now higher because of low skilled work moving overseas.
    As I posted above, you haven't shown anything yet.
    You will also have to explain that even if unemployment has gone up by a couple of percent, it doesn't explain how the market found TWICE the number of jobs in that time.
     
  16. Byron

    Byron Guest

    You and your chum bored silver (same person?) can keep harping on about your rubbish ideas and delusions.

    I provided solid evidence whereas you haven't, keep ignoring the real facts about unemployment and underemployment and how it's calculated today vs in the past.
     
  17. SilverSaviour

    SilverSaviour New Member

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    Read my post. I asked for evidence for your claims. That is all.
     
  18. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Clearly bored silver and SilverSaviour are not the same person. Have you ever seen a one line post from bordie? :lol:
     
  19. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You're still asking this? There are literally thousands of things unemployed or underemployed people can do. Mostly they need to obtain the appropriate price signals and be willing to move into that area of work. If they are happier with their current job then they can keep doing that. If they are going through the education system then they should choose the courses that seem most likely that fit their skills and are in demand. If they are currently unemployed then they should be willing to move or to find ways to get work - but as Silver Pauper said "Stop looking for a job and start looking for work". Read his excellent posts here and here if you haven't already seen them.

    If you hadn't noticed Australia has had a massive labour shortage over the past decade because there were far more opportunities than we could possibly supply. This is principally why our terms of trade improved dramatically. As labour is fundamentally the most scarce resource the natural way for the market to solve the best allocation of resources is to increase its price until the least valuable uses are dumped and the resources move to more valuable uses. This is the underlying dynamic of the two-speed economy but because of inertia it takes time to flow through (and indeed it is a constant ongoing process).

    To start you off here's a list of occupations currently in high demand from existing employers as given to DIBP:

    Construction Project Manager
    Project Builder
    Engineering Manager
    Production Manager (Mining)
    Child Care Centre Manager
    Medical Administrator
    Nursing Clinical Director
    Primary Health Organisation
    Manager
    Welfare Centre Manager
    Accountant (General)
    Management Accountant
    Taxation Accountant
    External Auditor
    Internal Auditor
    Actuary
    Land Economist
    Valuer
    Ship's Engineer
    Ship's Master
    Ship's Officer
    Architect
    Landscape Architect
    Cartographer
    Other Spatial Scientist
    Surveyor
    Urban and Regional Planner
    Chemical Engineer
    Materials Engineer
    Civil Engineer
    Geotechnical Engineer
    Quantity Surveyor
    Structural Engineer
    Transport Engineer
    Electrical Engineer
    Electronics Engineer
    Industrial Engineer
    Mechanical Engineer
    Production or Plant Engineer
    Mining Engineer (Excluding Petroleum)
    Petroleum Engineer
    Aeronautical Engineer
    Agricultural Engineer
    Biomedical Engineer
    Engineering Technologist
    Environmental Engineer
    Naval Architect
    Agricultural Consultant
    Agricultural Scientist
    Forester
    Medical Laboratory Scientist
    Veterinarian
    Metallurgist
    Physicist (Medical Physicist only)
    Early Childhood (Pre-Primary School) Teacher
    Secondary School Teacher
    Special Needs Teacher
    Teacher of the Hearing Impaired
    Teacher of the Sight Impaired
    Special Education Teachers nec
    Medical Diagnostic Radiographer
    Medical Radiation Therapist
    Nuclear Medicine Technologist
    Sonographer
    Environmental Health Officer
    Occupational Health and Safety
    Adviser
    Optometrist
    Chiropractor
    Osteopath
    Dental Specialist
    Dentist
    Occupational Therapist
    Physiotherapist
    Podiatrist
    Speech Pathologist
    General Medical Practitioner
    Anaesthetist
    Specialist Physician (General Medicine)
    Cardiologist
    Clinical Haematologist
    Medical Oncologist
    Endocrinologist
    Gastroenterologist
    Intensive Care Specialist
    Neurologist
    Paediatrician
    Renal Medicine Specialist
    Rheumatologist
    Thoracic Medicine Specialist
    Specialist Physicians nec
    Psychiatrist
    Surgeon (General)
    Cardiothoracic Surgeon
    Neurosurgeon
    Orthopaedic Surgeon
    Otorhinolaryngologist
    Paediatric Surgeon
    Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeon
    Urologist
    Vascular Surgeon
    Dermatologist
    Emergency Medicine Specialist
    Obstetrician and Gynaecologist
    Ophthalmologist
    Pathologist
    Diagnostic and Interventional
    Radiologist
    Radiation Oncologist
    Medical Practitioners nec
    Midwife
    Nurse Practitioner
    Registered Nurse (Aged Care)
    Registered Nurse (Child and Family Health)
    Registered Nurse (Community Health)
    Registered Nurse (Critical Care and Emergency)
    Registered Nurse (Developmental Disability)
    Registered Nurse (Disability and Rehabilitation)
    Registered Nurse (Medical)
    Registered Nurse (Medical Practice)
    Registered Nurse (Mental Health)
    Registered Nurse (Perioperative)
    Registered Nurse (Surgical)
    Registered Nurse (Paediatrics)
    Registered Nurses nec
    ICT business Analyst
    Systems Analyst
    Analyst Programmer
    Developer Programmer
    Software Engineer
    Computer Network and Systems
    Engineer
    Telecommunications Engineer
    Telecommunications Network
    Engineer
    Barrister
    Solicitor
    Clinical Psychologist
    Educational Psychologist
    Organisational Psychologist
    Psychotherapist
    Psychologists nec
    Social Worker
    Civil Engineering Draftsperson
    Civil Engineering Technician
    Electrical Engineering Draftsperson
    Electrical Engineering Technician
    Radio Communications Technician
    Telecommunications Field Engineer
    Telecommunications Network Planner
    Telecommunications Technical
    Officer or Technologist
    Automotive Electrician
    Motor Mechanic (General)
    Diesel Motor Mechanic
    Motorcycle Mechanic
    Small Engine Mechanic
    Sheetmetal Trades Worker
    Metal Fabricator
    Pressure Welder
    Welder (First Class)
    Fitter (General)
    Fitter and Turner
    Fitter-Welder
    Metal Machinist (First Class)
    Locksmith
    Stonemason
    Carpenter and Joiner
    Carpenter
    Joiner
    Painting trades workers
    Glazier
    Fibrous Plasterer
    Solid Plasterer
    Plumber (General)
    Airconditioning and Mechanical
    Services Plumber
    Drainer
    Gasfitter
    Roof plumber
    Electrician (General)
    Electrician (Special Class)
    Lift Mechanic
    Airconditioning and Refrigeration
    Mechanic
    Electrical Linesworker
    Technical Cable Jointer
    Electronic Equipment Trades
    Worker
    Electronic Instrument Trades
    Worker (General)
    Electronic Instrument Trades
    Worker (Special Class)
    Boat Builder and Repairer
    Shipwright
    Dental Hygienist
    Dental Prosthetist
    Dental Technician
    Dental Therapist
     
  20. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    @ bored silver :lol:

    Read #79
     

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