Fisheries

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by mmm....shiney!, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Making the property rights of rec. and non-rec. fisherman transferable (which is really the only way that they can really be said to have a property right) is the best way forward. The initial allocation then becomes less and less of an issue over time.
     
  2. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I thought you were about freedom and here you are imposing rules and regulations on EVERYONE as a collective group. Sounds very stateish to me.
     
  3. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Since when does libertarianism imply no rules or regulations? Surely you know this by now - especially since the fundamental principle that we live by is itself a huge bunch of rules about what you cannot do.
     
  4. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Haven't you worked out the key role private property plays yet?
     
  5. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    We do through our boat registrations of $20.70 per vessel. That's over $5m anually. Plus SIPS fees for fresh water if you are that way inclined.
     
  6. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Not lies from the lobby. Actual facts stated by me based of your own words.
     
  7. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Well you can extrapolate data. Ask fisheries, they take the smallest piece of shit piece of data about recreational anglers, extrapolate it as a % based on boats sold increases, work some figures in when others won't work and then tell us how many tonnes of snapper there were in QLD before white man arrived (Virgin biomass) really?

    And as above, I have already shot down your false premise that Recreational anglers add no value, it is complete bollocks.

    Take tailor as a perfect example. For a start, the vast majority of tailor is not sent to human consumption. We know that because it spends hours sometimes sitting in the backs of ute trays on the beach waiting for the next net shot to come in. Most of it goes to cat food I am told. 108 v 140t may not seem like too big a difference but the 108t of beach netted tailor does multiples more damage to the biomass of tailor and a number of other species than the 140t of recreational catch.

    So while commercial "mullet netters" who target tailor take whole spawning aggregations and sell them for $2-4 a kilo tops, the tailor run in places like Fraser Island and the beaches north of Noosa has been decimated over the last two decades. Gone are the days of the fibreglass forests on Fraser with hundreds of anglers standing side by side. Think about how much money goes into that past time and the assosiated support industries. Tourism is a big one for tailor that has taken a massive hit. Just so cats can eat fish. Tell me that tailor netting provides more value thnt recreational angling tailor and I'll tell you that you are using any bit of data to support your pre-biased argument.
     
  8. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    No no no no no. no on almost every count. For every kg of fish consumed out of the resource (who really gives a shit about who consumes it) the total economic dollars generated by recreational anglers far outweighs that of the commercial anglers. Remember also, that in recreational fishing these days, a single fish can be caught multiple times, especially during competitions that are C&R.

    So for that one fish that may fetch say $50 filleted under commercial conditions, essentially the rest of the associated industries are subtracted from that except for the restraunt side that may add a little to that overall. With the recreational sector for each fish caught the flow on into the economy grows. Take a look at the NT for a perfect example of a resource of Barramundi that is as close to perfectly utilised as you can get. Fishing tourism in the NT is huge since they restricted commercial barramundi netters. There's well over 100 tour operators just for fishing guides up there. Then add the accommodation, flights, tackle, fuel, food that goes into this tourism and the benefits to the economy are much larger than it was all those years ago with hundreds of net licences.
     
  9. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    Do you think you would be on a winner on the back of that? NSW anglers got the shits with inshore netters so much they actually lobbied the government to enforce a licence on themselves. Just for the sole purpose of raising funds that could be spent independently buying out fishing licences in rivers to make the RFH's. Over time these funds have also gone into restocking programmes to good effect. NSW management of those funds have been quite poor in the early years with a lot of waste but I think things are improving.

    In QLD we've been paying those $20.70 fees through our rego's for years and apart from a few artificial reefs down south have had very little to show for it. $10m set aside for this buy back is long over due and is MORE than paid for by recreational anglers in full.
     
  10. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'll ignore most of your posts, you are just rehashing the same arguments used to defend your right to lay sole claim to a resource at the expense of someone else.

    An amateur fishing licence is a joke of a suggestion, as are the fees you quote above, neither reflect the cost of the impact of recreational fishing on the resource (which is an unknown) nor the infrastructure required to support that industry. This indicates you have no understanding about transferrable quotas, free-market solutions to the tragedy of the commons and what this whole thread is about - the extinguishing of private property rights through the use of State sponsored force.
     
  11. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Has there a been a single documented man caused fish extinct in the open seas?
     
  12. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The Labor government and the recreational fishing lobby could not provide any figures to show the proposed economic benefits to our region from closing commercial fishing. They couldn't provide any returns because the data doesn't exist. All they could do was point to the NT and the returns from the fishing tourism industry there and attempt to apply the same costings and returns models to CQ. That's equivalent to saying that cattle producers in the Arcadia Valley get say $1500/beast, so cattle producers in the Moranbah region should get the same. That's how dodgy their economics are.

    All we do know is the cost to consumers as a result of the net bans in CQ.

    The Rockhampton region supplied about 30% of Australia's total wild caught Australian barramundi produce. This equated on average to about 1.2 million serves of fish annually, which at the lower end of estimates is worth about $20 - 30 million/year in sustainable value added product depending on its retail sale location.* There is no way that recreational anglers fishing for barramundi in the Rockhampton region can generate a value added return of $20 - 30 million/year, we are economically worse off now because of net bans. The Labor government and the recreational fishing lobby have taken an industry that created value and destroyed it and replaced it with an industry that returns far less value - and in the process have destroyed the wealth of individuals not only in the Rocky area but further afield.

    * wrong, see post #315
     
  13. Lovey80

    Lovey80 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not suggesting a fishing licence. But merely suggesting what would happen if quotas or transferable rights were brought in across all sectors and just pointing out that recreational anglers do in fact pay to access the resource.

    You're quite happy when state sponsored force benefits you but not the other way around. We have already established that multiple times in this thread. As for your unfounded suggestion that those fees don't reflect the cost of the impact. If we don't know the impact, how can we even begin to think of a cost? The infrastructure is paid for many times over through registrations.
     
  14. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    A quota sold at auction would eventually find its market value, ie the true cost of accessing the resource whether it's for amateur, commercial fishing or for preservation values would become known and would be reflected in the price those participants are willing to pay. As it stands now, non-anglers are forced to pay for the infrastructure that anglers demand and any fees that anglers pay do not reflect the costs of accessing or using that resource, they are being subsidised by taxpayers as a whole. Private transferrable property rights for all users internalises the cost of using the resource while protecting the rights of property owners, regardless of the sector to which they belong. Currently, none of that exists and the net bans were an abominal method to manage our fisheries industries - yet they are expected to be extended because of continuing lobbying from recreational fishing groups.

    What a load of nonsense. The upgrades to the Coorooman Ck boat ramp alone cost $740 000. How many boaties use the ramp facilities/year? How much revenue is brought in from boat and trailer registration costs from boaties that use that facility? Of those boaties, what proportion of their time do they use Coorooman Ck as opposed to Nerimbera or Rosslyn Bay? What about non-boat users who fish off the facility and don't pay any registration costs?

    You have no way of proving that recreational fishing registration charges are cost beneficial to the taxpayer because you don't have any accurate data.
     
  15. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The figures I attributed annually to the Rockhampton region barra fishery in post #312 do not add up. I'd say that rather than 1.2million serves annually coming from the region, it's about 1.2million serves over the period 2010 -2014 using data from the ECIFF Review.

    So to clarify and correct my error I've made this table based upon my own calculations using the ECIFF data, a 50% recovery rate on barra fillets and the retail price/portion size*. My apologies.

    The value added return on barramundi caught in the Rockhampton Region


    [​IMG]

    *based on our own business costings. The sale of fresh fish fillets at a retail level would attract less added value so the added value could possibly be less than my figures above, but we are a low end market provider, higher end restaurants may charge 2x or 3x our prices which may raise the overall added value above my figures in the accompanying table.
     
  16. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    13 pages of Libertarian based unworkable propaganda.
     
  17. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Fixed it for you. Which is what Libertarians do best. Fixing the fuk ups of statists. ;)

    Merry Xmas Newtosilver, and may 2017 be the year of your awakening. :lol:
     
  18. Newtosilver

    Newtosilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You didn't fix it you just push more spam.
     
  19. radiobirdman

    radiobirdman Active Member Silver Stacker

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    3 pieces of flake
    6 fried dim sims
    2 fish cakes
    minimum chips

    Thanks
     
  20. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    What? Since when is wishing a good mate a Merry Xmas considered spam?
     

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