Economist slams bitcoin as ‘mother of all scams’

Discussion in 'Digital Currencies' started by ozcopper, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. ozcopper

    ozcopper Administrator Staff Member

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    A LEADING economist has slammed bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, saying the mother of all bubbles has gone bust.

    Link: https://www.news.com.au/finance/mon...s/news-story/de550db47aa49fd7d58adfa0da18bfc6
     
  2. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Well-Known Member

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    Must be a good time to buy.
     
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  3. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Roubini is a tool squeezer.
     
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  4. SlyGuy

    SlyGuy Active Member

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    He is not wrong... you don't get something from nothing. All successful currency in the world's history has been commodity and/or government created.

    Congrats to those few who bravely pumped and dumped BTC on the greater fool theory. Any long term investors in crypto will be left grasping at straws.
     
  5. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    @SlyGuy, He’s wrong. His reasoning is fallacious and inaccurate. As is one of the examples you made ie:

    :)

    If you’d like I can outline my reasoning, but be warned, it’ll bring groans from some here. :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  6. SlyGuy

    SlyGuy Active Member

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    He said in the article crypto came from nothing. (accurate)

    He said crypto and crypto exchange was created out of greed. (mainly accurate... while it may or may not have been created out of greed, any new 'market' which does and IPO or similar public sale does that for one main reason)

    He says crypto was hyped and sold to the many to capitalize on their FOMO. (100% accurate)

    He said crypto will crash and be worthless. (sure looks to be accurate... history would say it will be)


    ...PS, you can't edit and remove someone's words within a quote. That would make it your words, no longer theirs... so not a quote. What I actually said was "All successful currency in the world's history has been commodity and/or government created." You removed the "commodity and/or," and I don't appreciate that.

    Brit pounds have been currency, cattle have been used as currency, German marks have been currency, gold and silver have been currency, Greenbacks have been currency, and jewels and beads have been currency. All of those things were valuable in and of themselves (commodity) or held value since they were created and/or backed by some sort of government. Anything else that was ever attempted as currency without commodity use or govt involvement was very short lived and/or failed completely. Heck, some govt or commodity ones failed or were scrapped rapidly also. Clearly, though, those two factors still seem to be requirements for a currency having any chance at success.

    Bitcoin and crypto in general (not govt created, backed by noting) have none of the qualities for success, and that is one of the main reasons it will fail. Just because a few major financial sites or some reputable companies are allowing trading crypto or payments made in crypto in order to make some free money on the transaction commissions does not change the fact that crypto has no underlying fundamentals. To think you can create something for nothing is foolish (yet apparently profitable in the short term for a few ppl). I'm glad this professor is calling crypto what it is. BitCoin and crypto will likely become a legendary example which is used for generations in econ courses to illustrate greater fool theory, bubbles, currency requirements, and mania situations.

    The last word is yours... I see no reason to exchange ideas with folks who clearly have their self-interested bias. If you had sound logic, you might be happy to discuss your topic with those with similar and those with different viewpoints (you tend to actually learn more from the latter). Please don't edit quotes in the future. Thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  7. ParanoidAndroid

    ParanoidAndroid Well-Known Member

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    Yes you will regret going there. You'll find out why soon enough.

    And the rest of the forum just took a collective groan because they know where this is going.
     
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  8. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I presume he's arguing that only tangible goods have value? If so he'd have to ignore the value that has been added in the form of satisfying need and creating a system that enables the trustless recording of any transaction and information you care to answer. Yes it's a glorified spreadsheet, but a particularly useful one.

    Value is subjective.

    The love that exists in a family is not tangible, but it is still highly valued by most.

    New coins/tokens in the market are introduced because they are advances on an existing technology or are designed to satisfy a need that either is in existence or is yet unknown.

    100% inaccurate. Cryptotechnology has been around for over a decade. BTC when first introduced (according to the developers) was an opportunity to exchange value without relying on the permission of centralised authorities. It was designed as a means to enhance freedom and liberty and to empower the powerless. In the decade since there have been two occasions that I remember when FOMO has caused a surge in buying, these have been short-lived, the mania subsided yet still dev teams contiinue to advance and introduce new technologies.

    His unjustified opinion. There is nothing in history that points to crypto being worthless.

    I can paraphrase you and leave out irrelevant words and it is still considered legitimate. The original meaning and intent was not altered in any way. The message remained the same as the original statement. I did it to point out your logical flaw ie government created currency eg State money is created out of nothing yet according to your criteria something created out of nothing cannot have value nor can it be succesful and have longevity. Hence your reasoning has no logic.

    State issued currencies have been created out of nothing and the only reason they have longevity is simply because they are forced on consumers at the point of a gun. :)

    There are other flaws in Roubini's appeals to logic, but I'll leave it there for now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  9. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I can’t comment on Bitcoin specifically but I would happily invest money in blockchain technology, I think that it has a big place in our future.
     
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  10. Shaddam IV

    Shaddam IV Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    And if I had to gamble I would take the position that Bitcoin was so groundbreaking that it was unsurprising that it became a mania and then crashed and that sometime in the future it will climb again in the second generation of crypto currencies which will be more mature and less of a novelty and more accepted as a functional paradigm. I might even buy some based on that likelihood. Bitcoin might just become the patriarch of the cryptocurrency world.
     
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  11. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Blockchain technology is free, can’t make decent money off that.

    Linux has shown us over decades of failures, you can’t make real (lots) money from free stuff. Unless one is developing an in-house not forsale product.

    Linux is like blockchain it’s free.
    Linux powers the internet’s,
    Name one fortune 50000000 Linux company even though I can guarantee every one of 5000000 companies will be using Linux in a major way.

    Note UNIX is not free.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  12. dozerz

    dozerz Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    id like to hear about a successful government created currency? hint you cant think of one that isn't in deficit, printing paper doesn't count.
     
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  13. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    :oops: We've been over this before.

    It's the value that blockchain technology adds that is priced e.g. water and sunlight are free, the manner in which we utilise both of those resource which adds value and creates a price.

    The price an individual is willing to pay for a good is not simply arrived at by totalling the costs of all inputs, just because one of the inputs costs "nothing" doesn't mean the end product of its use has no value.
     
  14. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    My comments on based on experience and how I see blockchain as a free technology, my IT budget is over $200 million a year, of which 30 million or so will be on spent on Linux, of which 99% are on salaries, hardware etc. dont think I pay $1 to Linux foundation

    of course I can be wrong but I see no $$$$ value in blockchain itself.
    Alphabet is very valuable, but in dollar terms for my pocket $0

    But I see great potential for it use or even critical in many companies. Ie if you said you are investing in Ticketeck because they are one of the most advanced users lof blockchain for sure, you have a winner. If you said you are investing in eth/bltcoin because it is using blockchain than that’s a losing investment.
     
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  15. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Ticketek (and every other company in the world) has two options:

    1. create it's own blockchain technology and utility tokens, or
    2. utilise the blockchain technology and expertise of another organisation eg Ethereum, Atonomi, Theta and buy their utility tokens to enable access to the platform.

    It really depends upon the goals and strategy of the various companies that are planning on adopting blockchain technology. As a primitave example I own a restaurant, I don't go and catch the fish or raise the beef that I sell myself, I leave that (including the transportation of it) to others. The dividsion of labour aka comparative advantage is what best enhances wealth.

    A producer such as Ultimate Ears would most likely be better off buying Atonomi tokens as a means to establishing a secure wireless network b etween their speakers and an iPhone rather than building their own. This is the value in investing in blockchain tech such as ethereum or BTC.
     
  16. Ag

    Ag Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Doubt crypto's will ever be anything more than a punt. What percent of the general public has already tried crypto's and got burnt? whats been the adoption rate for the general public? To think central banks will let the crypto community take over their position?

    Blockchain, Hashgraph (and what ever else gets developed) are amazing concepts/technology which won't go away any time soon. Intrinsically backed cryptos (metals,oil,gas) might have a longer life?

    If I was going to have a punt, then would pick the Alt coins as percentage moves are ridiculous.
     
  17. willrocks

    willrocks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Why is he "A LEADING economist"? Leading what?
     
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  18. dozerz

    dozerz Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    leading jokers to requote him on internets forums?
     
  19. SlyGuy

    SlyGuy Active Member

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    Exactly.

    Even assuming the basic hurdles (backed by nothing, wide adoption, transaction speeds, security, etc etc etc) were somehow overcome by crypto...

    ...in the end, who are you going to bet on, some computer guys making up money supply... or the massive groups who have all the guns and lawmakers and control of public services.
     
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  20. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You guys are only focussing on the cryptocurrency projects ie the coins designed as alternative currency coins (BTC, XMR, DASH etc) without considering the dozens of other projects which already meet with approval from the securities regulators or are designed as utility tokens which provide access to a network and allow the exchange of value within that network. Projects such as those (NEO, NEX, MCO, POLY etc) are not threats to State issued fiat currencies in the same way as true cryptocurrencies and can quite easily operate alongside these government currencies whilst at the same time enhancing consumer use by lowering cost, speeding up transactions, improving transparency, incentivising effort and strengthening property rights.

    Assuming by "intrinsically backed" you mean physically backed, then there's really not really much poiint in a physically backed crypto as it implies centralisation of authority as someone or some group is given the responsibility to manage the physical deposit which backs the currency. May as well allow banks or other corporations to issue private currencies (which I think is a good idea) and use a third-party blockchain technology to facillitate speedy transfers eg Ripple Labs of that money and to maintain a public ledger of transactions.
     

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