What?! I can't believe what I am reading, are you saying the grading services for gemstones is somehow corrupt? You would have thought that with all the money trading hands it would be free from that sort of thing. You can't trust anyone these days. Buy the 'gem' not the' certificate'
Got my tiny flawed diamond engagement ring passed down from my Grandmother's side of the family and in lieu of gifts the Greeks give money, which pretty much covered the cost of the wedding, but that was only in 2008 so time will tell.
Think your dealer doesn't know what he's talking about. Just slagging an honest company who does quality grading for most of Sydney's diamond wholesalers. He has probably got one of his GIA stones downgraded by them and is throwing a hissy fit. Their technician is also a gemologist plus there is a million dollar + worth of machinery to analyze the stones Cerrone uses these guys and I doubt that he would if they weren't kosher.
Pissing contest over I have to admit I do know nothing myself about diamonds But I will stick with my jeweller , Rick my valuer & Michael (Aussiecollectables) as the Gemo over any other Gemo
it was a good read(especially aurora vs spanner :lol) but even without reading this I would never buy diamond as an investment... or for anything else...
Diamonds are a great investment - the good will they get from your partner for many moons afterwards more than cover the cost of them.
I don't think diamonds are much use as an investment though they do have utility as a wealth store. If you are a millionaire living somewhere dangerous and are worried you might have to get out of dodge real quick with whatever you can carry then diamonds are for you. You could carry a million dollars in each nostril (or other available body cavity), enough to get yourself setup in your new tax haven. In situations like that it's not so important that you will lose 25-50% on what you paid, you'd probably pay that to someone to launder your money and stash it overseas anyway.
Allow me to introduce myself, i'm a diamond dealer in London and Antwerp. Only certain diamonds can be investment diamonds, most diamonds are not. I read the conversation between Spannermonkey and Aurora et Luna with interest. Spannermonkey the prices you have been quoted are normal for a jeweller but way overpriced for the professional diamond market. Aurora et luna, the RAP sheet that you refer to for prices is in USD per carat so the given price has to be multiplied by the carat weight to get the actual price. Then on the professional market diamonds would trade at either a discount or premium on the list depending upon the individual stone. At the moment a 2.03/E/VS2 Pr would have a list price of $28,420, a 2.17/F/VS2 Pr, $28427, a 3.01/F/VS2 Rnd, $86,086, and finally a 3.02/F/VS2 Pr at $63,118. This is pricing for stones certified by GIA and as stated previously a discount or premium may apply depending upon the particular stones.
The actual diamond district for the professional market is Hoveniersstraat and Schupstraat. Don't be confused by the shops in the other streets surrounding the Central Station. You can't walk in anywhere on these streets uninvited so i can't think of anywhere you can just walk in. (Having said that you do see some trading on the street outside the Bourse on the corner of Hoveniersstraat and Schupstraat). It would depend what you had if anyone was to be interested and you would probably be offered - 60 on the list price. If you know what you have i could ask if anyone is interested. Remember most people here are manufacturers aswell as dealers.
Thank you. I'll check the phonebook for that street and set up an appointment . It is mostly reclaimed stuff...here is a (terrible!)pic of some of it with a sovereign for scale. Its been looked at on a loupe by a jeweller and tested with a diamond and then mosanite tester, also a density test based on cut dimensions. [imgz=http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/13364_diamonds.jpg][/imgz] if you are curious I can take better pics and fuller descriptions etc. Also have some rough and drilled beads. The sovereign is 22.05 mm (0.868 in) diameter. The bottom row is e,g 90 points cushion cut, 95 points princess cut, 1ct pear cut. The mixed jar is 10-20 points mixed cuts 1.6ct in total...there is more. Are you interested in other gemstones or purely diamonds I have a collection of other gems (to be honest the diamonds are the least interesting bit)?
We very rarely use other gems apart from when a client requests them, when we do we use a manufacturer called Gemerald who is situated in Rijfstraat near where is joins Hoveniersstraat. I would try them for your other gems, (they also do diamonds). If they are white and eye clean i would get the .90 Cu, .95 Pr and 1ct Pear certified. HRD and IGI are both in the Diamond District and are reputable labs. If they are certified by either these two labs or GIA they will be easier to sell. Do you have a carat weighing scale? If not i could send you a chart giving approximate carat weights by diameter. The smaller melee stones are bought as a parcel and are not expensive, the smaller stones start getting interesting and worth being certified once they reach the two grainer, (.50 pts stage).
You are very decent but I already have that chart printed and laminated and found with my ct scales that it was a great extra check. Gemmology is a very interesting subject (I was contemplating taking a course). I fell into it my accident having acquired stones from a bankrupt manufacturer of jewellery some time ago (packets of emerald and ruby). Later I had the opportunity to acquire a lot of scrappage from a rather crude and stupid cash for gold operator who was literally pulling stones and throwing them on the floor and desk from anything other than stuff that came into him with diamond certificates. So I got the stones for the price of a few drinks and a meal when he folded his commercial lease on a retail unit. He was even sending half sovereigns to melt so it was not particularly surprising when he got in difficulty with his 'business' which seemed to basically consist of scamming old women via gold 'parties'. I have large quantities of unsorted white stones e.g. CZ but their may still be better stuff in there like white sapphire. You can imagine the patience that was required to remove the smaller coloured stones from the huge mess sort them and find a few diamonds out of the thousands of stones! Later in a fit of hobbyist obsession I sat down and sorted it further and put it in trays got it given a quick once over by an old school jeweller more to see if my identifications were correct or not than value . I had a bit of fun giving some stones as gifts and kept a selection of stones and cuts in case I got around to doing the coloured gem cert. I would like to keep a couple of diamonds as samples but the rest of the diamonds can go. I got as far as using different filters on a loupe, a basic diamond tester, a mossanite tester, UV fluorescence, density etc. but know enough to know I know very little and did not want to waste money on fancier gear like a refractometer or spectrascope for myself yet as correct use probably requires instruction. I looked at certifying but the insured cost of shipping is savage and the only person local to me who sends stones for grading is only interested in large stones. Perhaps I should try getting them certified first as you suggest. I was thinking of letting the surplus diamonds go at 75% wholesale or best offer. It is not really an urgent matter for me but it would be an interesting experience to cash them in and enjoy the proceeds. I should probably go the whole hog and mount them in some 18K....but only so many hours in a day. I apologise for the pic (it is truly awful) and will post better pics of the bigger collection for your entertainment later on today. It is amazing how much very high end old sapphire and ruby vintage jewellery was destroyed in the cash for gold craze and the stones were treated as rubbish by the smaller unknowledgeable sharks and 'party' operators that surfaced in the boom who were barely able to do more than acid test and wield a pliers. Equally old purple amethyst, coral, opal, old aquamarine etc. Shame really. Also a lot of beautiful old and extremely valuable Georgian silverware got destroyed by idiots when silver prices spiked so much so I remember some papers were running stories from antique dealers begging people to get a valuation. Perhaps the nastiest bit of vandalism I saw was a beautiful pair of early 19th century flintlock pistols that had had the monogrammed silver plaques ripped from the grip and grotesque style pommel before I got the offer of 'do you want these things' (I value antique arms and armour for dealers and auctioneers occasionally). I am not sure that the theme of the thread is entirely correct - for someone who actually knows gemmology and is in the trade stones can be an investment. it is amazing how much demand for stones appears to be coming from China from what I have read and that has to have lifted prices and made returns for investors and traders who knew their stuff. I don't think it is an area for amateurs like myself to invest though as I think you really need trade experience and knowledge. Neither does liquidity mean everything. Art and antiques can be extremely lucrative but have naturally lower liquidity. The counterparty risk is only mitigated by the expertise of the buyer and this naturally results in lower liquidity. Real estate can be extraordinarily illiquid but no one questions investing in it. Question for you - is the gemstone market seasonal - are their times of the year when prices generally rise?
Smaller coloured stones, alexandrite, amethyst, topaz, aquamarine, garnets, citrine, chrome diopside, smaller sapphires, smaller rubies, smaller emeralds, pearl, coral, smoky quartz, peridot, turquoise, Spessartite,lightning ridge black opal, moonstone, tigers eye, amber, onyx, etc etc Larger Rubies and Saphires - Top right is Tanzanite Some Opals, bottom is right Emerald and left Tsavorite Diamonds I'm afraid I don't have the gear to take better pictures. I would have to setup something with a real lens and diffused light on a tripod to do better. I have no real idea what it is all worth. Like I say more a hobby than an investment of any kind. The two British soverigns are just for scale at a 22.05 mm (0.868 in) diameter (an 1890 and an 1896). My favourite would have to be the trillion tanzanite. I should really find a mount for it. There is more but it is not worth posting without a better camera.
Hi again thanks for the posts and pics. I understood you was in the Antwerp region from your earlier post probably my mistake. Certifying isn't expensive and both HRD and IGI have labs in Antwerp and they are reputable labs. If you're sending to the USA gor GIA certs I can understand the logistical problems as sending diamonds isn't easy. If sending to the US, I would use Ferrari or Malca Amit and would probably recommend Ferrari, cheaper than MA and more helpful. It shouldn't cost more than a couple of hundred USD to send a stone or stones, (depending on the value), anywhere in the world. Pricing isn't by a single stone it's by value so if for example you ship one stone worth $50,000 or 50 worth a total of $50,000 the shipping costs would be the same. Photos are usually taken using a special box but the illustrated collection looks impressive. I'll show these pictures to my partner, who's in Antwerp, and see if he has any suggestions. Yes, there is a strong market in China and most of our exports over the last year or so have been there. The diamond market is moving again but what is holding it back is the high price of rough at the moment, if the prices drop slightly on the next sight it will help and will filter through to the cut and polished market. Recycled diamonds have not been a big thing in the diamond trade but for the reasons you outline in your first post I think that could change, if rough stays high that will obviously help bring that about.
I can readily visit Antwerp but I will take your advise and certify some of the better stones and possibly the larger sapphires and rubies and have them cleaned and polished. I also have an unusual red stone that may be a coloured diamond that I also want looked at. I don't intent to sell much just the surplus as you can see I have tried to keep a selection of different cuts and clarities with the idle thought of some day doing the coloured gemstone certification. Please don't trouble your partner as I see selling a bit of the surplus this as an amusement and an opportunity and an excuse for an excursion. I have only passed through Antwerp but very much enjoyed previous visits to Leuven and Bruges - the Belgian strong beers are the finest in the world IMO! Please don't trouble yourself further on my behalf and many thanks. Always interested in real world reports of demand from China in gemstones as a leader to the gold demand that goes with it. The GIA did a very well researched piece on it that you probably know in depth already but I found it a very interesting read. http://www.gia.edu/gems-gemology/spring-2014-lucas-chinese-gem-industry
No problem, i've found our conversation enjoyable and interesting in any case. As for the possible red diamond if you have access to a diamond tester it's worth trying that to start with although not all are reliable. If it went to a lab they would first do a hardness test and take things from there. You can do an hardness test yourself, a common way of doing the hardness test in the field when there's no access to a lab is to scratch one item from the preceding item in the table. For example on MOHS scale of hardness diamond is a 10 and corundum, (ruby or sapphire), is a 9 so if your red "diamond" scratches one of your rubies or sapphires there is a very good chance that it is diamond. If it is red diamonds are the rarest and most expensive of all diamonds so good luck!
