Communist China pushing for war - it's ramping up!

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by SpacePete, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d58V6a1Cyco[/youtube]
     
  2. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You're correct again Silver bullitt.

    One of the problems with SpacePete is that his hatred of China or Communism (or both) seems to override his ability to discern facts.

    For example:
    i) He can't accept the provable fact that China has had active claims in the South China Sea for hundreds of years.

    He views plain historical fact as "Communist propaganda", even though this fact has nothing to do with Communism. Hence even Taiwan (which is not a Communist state - yet shares the same history) supports this claim.

    ii) He thinks that agreeing with verifiable historical facts is supporting Communism.

    He can't seem to comprehend that a person could agree with the facts, yet disagree with a political ideology. His brain probably bluescreens trying to understand why Taiwan would support China's claim to the South China Sea; he probably thinks Taiwan is Communist nation too!

    iii) He doesn't understand that there are a myriad of nations with competing claims - he naively thinks it's China vs South East Asia; when a more accurate picture is that it's a multifaceted issue.

    If China removed itself from the South China Sea, there would still be ongoing claims between 8 or more nations. Vietnam has border issues with Brunei, Cambodia, Malaysia, Taiwan, and the Philippines, and vice-versa. Alor has tried to explain this to him, but it's too much information for his head to compute all at once.

    [​IMG]

    iv) He thinks that lambasting China's "repressive" regime somehow diminishes China's historical claim. Instead of demonstrating his ignorance so much, he should follow the lead of his idol, and merely ask "Please explain?"
     
  3. Jim4silver

    Jim4silver Well-Known Member

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    Really not possible to say what country owns what land in a legal sense. At the end of the day "might makes right". Land has been taken by one country after another over the past thousands of years and that trend will continue. People think that somehow the world became more benevolent and kind in the past century on the issue of taking land/respecting borders, etc.

    If China thinks they own something that now is in another's possession, let them try and take it, like Russia did in Crimea. If they succeed they "own" it for now.

    There really is no "law" on the international level, at least that is really fair to all parties. All countries have different interests and in many of these squabbles it is not possible to have a "win/win" in any court of law, so somebody will feel like they got ripped off. The progressives pretend that NATO is some benevolent, law obeying entity trying to bring world peace, but in reality they are just soldiers following "someone's" orders- like all other armies/institutions in the world.

    Whomever appears to be in control or on top is always the most powerful of the groups. That's how it always has been and always will be. Survival of the fittest as they say.

    Just my opinion.

    Jim
     
  4. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Yup, as the old adage goes: "Possession is nine-tenths of the law"
     
  5. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    "Yup, as the old adage goes: "Possession is nine-tenths of the law"



    Or, as they used to say when Adam was a lad, that "Land belongs to those strong enough to take it, and strong enough to keep it!".

    Does not make it morally correct, but is fact nevertheless.

    JMO


    OC
     
  6. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The problem with comrade Yennus is that his education is shaped overwhelmingly by an ideology that blinds him to the basic reality that his "truth" is a fabrication shaped by propaganda.
     
  7. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Yep. It also enables you to rewrite history to justify your actions.
     
  8. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    SP, #206,

    Same with the peace loving muslim supporters!

    OC
     
  9. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    As if you are immune; your "truth" is also shaped by propaganda, it just happens to be of a different strain.
     
  10. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Nope. We're talking about supplying verifiable evidence and comrade Yennus fails at every turn to supply anything to back his claims.

    The problem with claims based on ancient maps is that other nations have ancient maps too. It's a "my map is better than your map" debate, but ultimately it boils down to three simple words...

    Might makes right.
     
  11. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Hawaii is over 4,000km off the coast of California.

    The Kamehameha Dynasty united the Hawaiian Archipelago and ruled it as a Kingdom from 1810. American traders conducted their lives and businesses under the authority of the king and chiefs.

    In 1893, resident Americans (foreign emigrants) staged a coup overthrowing the kingdom. The US military followed up with a full occupation at the request of the conspirators.

    The United States fully annexed the Hawaii in 1898; it was integrated as a U.S State in 1959.

    By the same standards that you're imposing on the PRC, you'd also need to question the legitimacy of the US annexation of Hawaii.
     
  12. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    RCS,

    Is your family home built on stolen land? As we all are!

    If so, sign it over to the local Aboriginal Land Council!

    Otherwise.......
     
  13. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Leaked cable about the historical claims:

    Code:
    Basis of historical claim unclear 
    --------------------------------- 
     
    4. (C) Yin admitted he is not aware of the historical basis 
    for the "Nine Dashes," though he said Chinese historical 
    documents indicate the basis for placement of the dashes on 
    SCS maps.  Beijing University Asia scholar Yang Baoyun told 
    PolOff separately that China's SCS claims date back to 
    ancient times, prior to the development of the modern 
    nation-state.  Hence, as the modern Chinese nation-state 
    developed in the 20th century, under the Kuomintang and then 
    Communist rule, China became increasingly confident of its 
    identity and its borders.  Neither MFA's Yin nor Beijing 
    University's Yang could specify a historical document that 
    indicated the basis for the demarcation of the "Nine Dashes." 
     Yang referred to a 2000 MFA "white paper" on the SCS.  This 
    document provides a survey of China's historical and legal 
    claims in SCS but focuses mainly on evidence of Chinese 
    sovereignty over the Spratly and Paracel Islands and other 
    reefs and features.  For example, the white paper cites 
    Japan's relinquishment of sovereignty over the islands in the 
     
    BEIJING 00003499  002 OF 002
    
    SCS after World War II to support China's claim to 
    sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands.  However, 
    the white paper devotes little attention to the history of 
    the "Nine Dashes," providing, for example, only vague 
    references to areas frequented by Chinese fisherman from 
    Hainan. 
    RANDT 
    
    
     
  14. Old Codger

    Old Codger Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Agre,

    The whole 9 dash line, and the claims to the South China Sea is a try on against the West to see how far they can push before we push back.

    Not a word about all this 10 or 15 years ago, no occupations, no bases, no threats, no nothing.

    IMNHO it is "all about oil", and the possibility that the area has a lot of it.

    The 'historical' claim is mainly bullshit, and how the PRC can claim an island a few kms off the Philippines coast is ridiculous!

    So much for the PRC 'Good Neighbour Policy'! If those neighbours have not learned a major lesson from this then they deserve to lose.


    OC
     
  15. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The wikileaks sources (Yin and Baoyun) agree with the position everyone has been trying to tell you.
    i) "... Chinese historical documents indicate the basis for placement of the dashes on SCS maps." [Yin]
    ii) "... China's SCS claims date back to ancient times, prior to the development of the modern nation-state." [Baoyun]

    I have even given you two pieces of primary source material that indicate China's claim - both written prior to the Communist take over.
    ie. 1430 (Zheng He's Navigation Map), and compilations in 1621 (Mao Yuanyi).

    The wikileaks source similarly asserts the view that Alor and others here have been telling you, specifically that the SCS is a mixing pot of national interests "Japan's relinquishment of sovereignty over the islands in the SCS after World War II to support China's claim to sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands." Not only did Japan have a historical claim, but also Brunei, Malaysia and Vietnam.

    You still haven't dealt with your 4 main issues:
    i) China's historical claim in the SCS - even prior to Communism.
    ii) China's historical presence in the SCS is independent of Communism - hence Taiwan can support this view. (In other words; you can be a Nationalist/Democrat/Republican/Vegan/Libertarian and still believe that China has had a historical presence and claim in that region)
    iii) The SCS is a complex dispute with multiple parties. Even Brunei, Malaysia and Vietnam claim similar positions over the Spratly Islands.
    iv) Question your own sources.
     
  16. yennus

    yennus Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It's not just the PRC claiming islands a few kilometers off the Philippines coast... Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan and Vietnam also have similar, current and competing claims.

    As was stated previously - it's not China vs South East Asia; it's the region working out border issues.

    Malaysia has militarily occupied three islands that it considers to be within its continental shelf.
    Brunei states that the southern part of the Spratly Islands chain is actually a part of its continental shelf...
    Taiwan's garrison from 19461950 and 1956-now on Itu Aba represents an "effective occupation" of the Spratly islands.
    Vietnamese claims that it has occupied the Spratly and the Paracel islands at least since the 17th century

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islands_dispute#Basis_of_Malaysia.27s_claim
     
  17. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    with the new technology, oil does not matter, all China needs are just a few ships and strong sucking pipes to pump up the oil, and move on; while doing that there is protections from their navy, all the VVVVLCC can move around the water safely while the oil can be drained in no time.

    if you see the claim by Brunei, which is a few times bigger that their entire country many times over, even Singapore does not have it :D

    "

    US PROPOSED MILITARY BASE IN SABAH, EASTERN MALAYSIA?

    At stake from Washington's standpoint is the control of strategic waterways.

    The Malaysian government has entered into a close relationship with the US characterized by purchase of US military equipment, the conduct of US-Malaysia war games in 2014.

    According to unconfirmed reports, a US military base is contemplated by the Kuala Lumpur government. The purpose of these initiatives is ultimately to destabilize bilateral relations between Malaysia and China.
    "
    [​IMG]



    to prove that you have claims, there must be historical evidence to prove them.

    http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/gdxw/t1267611.htm


    The construction is carried out mainly for three purposes: improving the living and working conditions of people stationed there; better performing China's international responsibility and obligation in maritime search and rescue, disaster prevention and mitigation, environmental protection; and better providing international public good such as navigation safety, marine science and research, meteorological observation and fishery production.


    the light houses become China's obligation to build, this were the agreed conditions in the UN long time ago, if The UN did not recognize the Chinese own backyard, why in the hell did they asked China to build the light houses in their South Chinese Sea.

    Japan, USA, Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia were not the countries asked by the UN to build the light houses there, it was China.


    [​IMG]

    it is all about chocking points, US has Malacca

    what if Russia and Indo build a naval base in Natuna ??? or China and Indo build a Naval base in West Timor ???

    I can not see the overlapping claims to be rational, it is a lawless one trying to create nothing but chaos. :lol: It is an International law, but how can that be ??? can your land ownership be overlapping, it is nonsense !!!
     
  18. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Yes, I'm sure the reinforced aircraft hangars and surface-to-air missile batteries will prove invaluable for environmental protection, fishery production and maritime search & rescue :lol:
     
  19. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't see the claim to be that, it is a clear anti aircraft and ships missiles batteries place there in the open for the satellite to see, when aircraft carriers are navigating near the surrounding water, what if they mis-fired just like Taiwan did ???
     
  20. SpacePete

    SpacePete Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Perfect for environmental protection:

    [​IMG]
     

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