CHINESE COINS _ Here is a very compelling reason to grade them SOON !

Wow Low! Thanks for sharing! I heard part of your story before, and hearing more of it now is even more moving! Thanks again!

Indeed, the fear of phoney Pandas is worse than the reality of fake Pandas.

I've noticed that the people who talk bad about Pandas are often the people who know the least about them.

 

Thanks Yennus.

Anyone, even if you know absolutely zero thing about MCC but is willing to spend time reading and asking question in this forum and CCF should never, ever worry about fake MCC.

Fake coins only kill the people who doesn't genuinely love coins, and I think that is not a bad thing either.

If you genuinely love your coins, can't you learn to tell what is genuine and what is fake?

 

+1

"Anyone, even if they knew absolutely nothing about Modern Chinese Coins, but were willing to spend some time reading and asking questions in this forum and the Chinese Coin Forum, should never ever worry about fake Modern Chinese Coins." (Low)

Well said Low!

Just like Jim Rogers always says "Do your homework!"

 

I just got all my pandas back from PCGS on Saturday.

 

That comment is such a tease
Share the results

 

Firstly thanks to all who've contributed to this thread, it's a great discussion!

Very appreciative of Low's post especially, although not alot to do with Pandas a great read nonetheless regards to collecting, love reading about experience!

A couple of points: I dont have all the facts, this is observation and opinion, I love to learn so please correct me if I'm wrong with things like "uh 25, you may want to look at this..."

I guess this thread only applies to those bent on having their OMP coins graded and are worried about increased fees from NGC. I'm not having my OMP coins graded by NGC (for now).

The super forgers will also have to forge OMP packaging and how easy is that? Not likely. Repackaged coins should be disclosed by honourable sellers. Besides, almost anyone can tell a fake Panda when they see it thanks to guys like Peter and the plethora of good reading material on them. Experts SHOULD be the least duped... I am shocked to read about those frosted '00 coins being refused. New buyers are put off any market they don't know or understand not just the MCC market. They will educate themselves if they are interested in investing in MCC and genuine OMP coins will STILL be fine. Some of you may have recently seen a large OMP beijing olympic gold coin sell for over $10,000 on ebay with no help whatsoever from any grading 'superpower'.

I haven't seen any of these 'super' fakes, where are they? I understand they are made of Ag/Au but are they aesthetically accurate? Is there documented photographic evidence anywhere? The fake I bought off ebay was decidedly un-super. (real pic on auction-fake coin sent to me).

If on the other hand you are worried about the real threat, 'superpower' grading corporations holding us to ransom as the market increases in value, stinging us with higher fees because of their stupid guarantee, then yes hurry up and get your coins graded! Then again maybe you would rethink sending coins to NGC after hearing that genuine coins from the same sheet as already graded coins coming back as 'questionable authenticity.' What a complete joke, it either smacks of a fee grab or else INCOMPETENCE of the highest order which is far, far worse. A '00 frosted Panda is not a rare variety, NGC should be more than familiar with the quirks of that coin. To have real MCC coins coming back as questionable is freakin unbelievable! We are all in very serious trouble when genuine coins are being refused by expert graders... I don't know why noone seems to mind this. It's like oh, well.

The solution to higher fees if the market moves higher is for the grading supercompanies to do away with their liability. They could easily do this if they chose to but instead have decided to attach their service to the upward pressure of the market, even though this has nothing to do with the actual process of authentication. It's simply greed. There is NO need for guarantees in ANY industry, none. NO guarantee, that's right, none. They remind me of late night infomercials. Guarantees mean that you are unsure about your service or product performing the job it's designed to do. That you don't fully understand your business or the factors that influence it to the extent that you put a monetary figure on your insecurity in the hope that the public will use your service/product anyway.

If they're the experts and we're paying them to authenticate and grade coins of the MCC market, thereby influenicng rarity of grade thereby influencing prices, it should be a given that they know all about the grading of said market. Afterall, it's a huge responsiblity, THAT should be the guarantee!!!

By the way, I can't belive we're not up in arms with talk over NGC becoming stricter on grading, if true, what does that mean for coins already graded? What prerequisites have changed in grading criteria? It means that my freshly graded MS681998LD from 2012 is really a MS691998LD from 2010. Sorry but that's unacceptable, they can't change the goalposts now. How does this affect my buying of graded Pandas now? Or new people coming into the market... All grades, ALL come under scrutiny... and as for my 70's? Well, who knows...

Instead of saying I've got my flame proof suit on we should be asking, do we really have to?

 

Like any investment you have to learn and study if you expect to make any gains.

One does not simply walk into mordor sit on their fat ass buying random coins and get rich.

Even buying silver bullion you need to do your research on GSR and growth potential etc.

The same applies to Chinese coins.

Once enough research has been done it becomes obvious that the risk of fakes is far far tinier than the potential gains realized.

Anyway that's my 2c about fakes and 'super' fakes.

 

... after two very deep and meaningful posts by Low and 25Grizzlies... you totally change the atmosphere with:

"One does not simply walk into mordor sit on their fat ass buying random coins and get rich."

Ahahah... so true... so true

"On to Gondor!"

 

That was/is my strategy in a nutshell ?

 

I agree with you 25Griz.

The issue here is that the observations and decrees of stricter grades are from the submitters. NGC hasn't come out and said, "We are tightening our standards." A move like that would cause a true uproar and they'd likely go bankrupt paying out the differences in fair market value under their guarantee if this move in fact impacted the grades of past coins.

What's more, NGC, and all TPGs, will always be able to fall back on the statement that grading is subjective.

Personally, I've had a pretty poor experience buying NGC coins on eBay. The majority of them have not been of the eye-appeal I expected in comparison to the coins I've submitted myself. What's more, many of them (I think about 8 out of the 15 or so that I've bought) have had flaws that have resulted in me sending them to NGC for review. NGC compensated me for all of them, which is great, but the fact that some 50% of the coins I've bought weren't worthy of the grades they had stamped on them is disconcerting. In nearly all of these cases I have suspected that the coins were bulk dealer submissions because the ending numbers were in the hundreds. This makes me think that NGC is possibly rushing through these bulk submissions and isn't being as thorough, or, they are playing favorites. So from my personal experience, I wouldn't be upset to see them improve their consistency, standards and quality control. As I said in another thread somewhere, when I buy a slabbed coin, I want it to be deserving of that grade -- especially the 70s.

Diverting a little bit, at a large show I went to over the weekend, one large dealer who only deals in graded coins had a very large inventory of 1989 and 1990 pandas. As I was looking through them I realized all of his label numbers started with 34xxxxx. I asked if he submits directly to NGC or NCS. He said he only sends them to NGC and was shocked that I'd ask if he conserved his coins (not sure why).

"So I don't think slabs starting with a "3" are an indication of conserved coins as has been hypothesized before."

Edit: I do believe NCS slabs start with a 3. I do NOT believe the 3 is exclusive to NCS coins.

 

Guys excellent replies by all !!!

Low that was a very interesting story !

Hopefully it is not perceived that I am attempting to spread fear about Chinese Coins (Pandas) as nothing could be further from the truth. Just like many members here on this forum I have $1,000's of dollars invested in Chinese Pandas and do not have any plans on slowing down on my collection. In fact I invested a significant amount of money on some very cool coins this weekend that I will post up when they arrive.

The intention of the post here was to make members aware of observations that were communicated out by a very knowledgeable and well respected member of CCF regarding his recent submissions to NGC. It was along the same lines of issues that we all have seen creeping into getting MCC graded. What I posted here is information that I think is important for people to know. Knowledge is power and to pretend something does not exist does not make it disappear, it only makes it more dangerous. When we have information then we can formulate measures to mitigate our exposure to risk.

It has been discussed many times here on SS and at CCF about the inherent risks of counterfeit MCC but we also recognize that there is risk of counterfeit items in almost all other high value items that are bought, sold and traded. Just because US $100 bills are counterfeited by the billions does not give me an aversion to collecting and storing as many as possible. Art collectors spend millions on fine art amongst 1000's of fakes but they continue to collect by using knowledge they have acquired about what they are collecting. As has been mentioned several times, all it takes is a little research and knowledge of what you are buying and the risks of purchasing counterfeits are fairly low. With all of the MCC's that I have purchased I have only acquired one counterfeit when I first started my collection and it was one of those "if it's too good to be true, it probably is" scenarios.

I still feel very confident when buying pandas because I have done my homework and predominately buy from reputable people. I have never heard of one counterfeit coin ever sold here at SS or on CCF. Now that I am starting to branch out into another area of MCC's and researching other coins such as historical figures, goldfish, etc. I would more than likely only purchase these coins graded. The cost associated with sets of these coins only makes sense to me to buy something that has been authenticated, that's just me.

As SANDAC pointed out, the resources required of NGC to authenticate MCC's and support their guarantee on coins that have exploded in value with a lot of sophisticated fakes, I can see why they have adopted certain measures. I have no problem with it as I know when I buy a graded coin that has been authenticated, it will maintain its value and be more liquid.

I think that possibly some coins that could grade 69 right now may be given 68 grades (not all but some) because of tougher standards but honestly the majority of 69's that I own and have seen being sold are very nice coins and deservedly graded 69 or 70.

I feel the concerns of the collector are for the most part being addressed and that is that they are receiving coins that are validated as "authentic" and are very nice looking coins.

Nothing will be perfect

What may happen in the future is that collectors will be more apprehensive to acquire high value coins in OMP as it may be more difficult to grade them or even sell them in OMP.
When I say "high value" I am not talking about the pandas that we see bought and sold on here, CCF & Ebay I'm talking about coins that are valued in the $5,000 and higher category and sets of MCC's.

Anyway sorry if I ruffled some feathers guys that was not my intention to spread fear in a hobby that you and I love and revel in. My heart is into collecting MCC's and I will continue to do so but as I have always been, I will also continue to be very observant of what I buy.

 

NGC getting tougher on grading is not something that I or anyone else "conjured" up

I spoke to directly to an NGC representative back in September of 2011 about recent grades and why PCGS cross-over submissions were being rejected and was told specifically that they had increased scrutiny on grading MCC's. Anyone here on SS or following posts on CCF will see that it is indeed the case. Look at what sandac just posted, I have no reason to question him. I have nowhere near the knowledge of many of the veteran members, dealers and collectors and CCF and they have all conceded that they are seeing it too, I know that I definitely have. Anyone who says otherwise has not been submitting a large volume of coins. I highly doubt that NGC is going to come out and post a big memo like "Hey we are tightening our scrutiny on MCC" if you are waiting on that to happen, you will need to wake up from the dream.

Regarding a post I made about "3" having a relation to a coin being graded. My position was not that it is 100% in every case but that it is highly likely but I also provided information whereas the 300 coins that I sent in for conservation all began with a three and that a total of over 1,000 coins between me and associates that were NCS conserved all began with the number "3". In my situation I was "batting 1000%" that is all I had to say. I would be interested for you to show me a coin that you have had conserved that begins with anything other than a "3" because it would be the first I have seen. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, only that I haven't seen it.

Forums like SS and CCF are all about are people sharing information from what they have experienced. There are a lot of unknowns surrounding MCC's and grading and not many "precise" manuals available for exactly how it is done and what to do. All I can do is post my experiences regarding the $100,000+ that I have invested in this hobby so that others can read it and make their own decisions.

I'm not here on this forum to sell you or anyone else snake oil. I am not a professor in MCC or grading and what I write/post is not to be viewed as a professional dictionary or encyclopedia. It is only what I have experienced nothing more or less. If you or anyone else believes that what I post here is conjured up to mislead you or the members here then obviously you know nothing about my character bro.

Happy Collecting !

 

Not sure if your reply is meant to be directly at me, but I didn't say you or anyone conjured up anything.

I do in fact agree that grading standards have tightened over the last several months and have seen that with my own, and friends', submissions. And, I would never expect NGC to publicly announce a change in their standards for not only the reason I originally mentioned, but their credibility would also take a hit as 25griz also mentioned. I'm certainly not in any dream state.

As for the "3" discussion, you aren't the only person who has stated that their slabbed NCS coins begin with a 3. I never said conserved slabs don't start with a 3. I agree with you, your experience, and actually mine as well that coins coming from NCS are being labeled beginning with a 3. My point is, it doesn't appear that the beginning 3 is exclusive to NCS coins. Dealer bulk submissions directly to NGC are also being slabbed with labels starting with a 3. My reason for bringing this up was because many buyers have been looking to purchase slabs that start with a 3 thinking that they will be buying a conserved coin. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that that is the simple case. I'd hate for our fellow stackers to pay more for a slab with a 3, or pass up a nice coin without because they are under the impression that all that begin with a 3 are conserved.

I'm not sure why you think I was implying that you are selling snake oil or personally debating your comments. I think your experiences and posts are useful and well-received by all on this forum.

Also, I had to edit my previous post for clarity after re-reading...

Edit: I do believe NCS slabs start with a 3. I do NOT believe the 3 is exclusive to NCS coins.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Comeaux. I think is a good thing you give to us. The new data. Im too think the data is power. And i email with a few dealers and they too think now is more dificult to obtain 69 than early. And the ebay prices reflect it.
I buy a panda 1999SD begining with 4. I ask if its a crossover and the dealer say to me: no.
And he say is ncs conserved when i say to him to send the papers he send the ncs form for others coin. But he dont find the 1999.
If he dont find it. I think the same than comeaux and heimderrick.

NCS slabs start with a 3. I do NOT believe the 3 is exclusive to NCS coins.

 

Yes ... agreed "3" is not conclusive but a possible indicator.

Any dealer who sells you a coin that they claim has been conserved should have the documentation to support it regardless of what number it begins with.

"4" may not be conclusive as well for cross-over, all I can tell you is that the coins that I had conserved/crossed-over have begun with a "4" as well as those I have purchased from others.

There is also the possibility that the dealer who told you "no" did not originally grade the coin. I find it odd that he knows so much about the coin from memory but has no paperwork to substantiate what he did with it. I'm not even a dealer but I have kept all of the paperwork associated with any coin I have graded/conserved/crossed-over. That way in the event that I ever do sell one of my coins, I will be able to prove what was done to the buyer.

Again ... as long as you are happy with your coins then I am too !

 

Thanks for all the posts on this thread it is very interesting and informative. I dont have much to add but I have certainly noticed getting coins from large companies that send a ton of them in to get graded haveing lower quality ms 70 coins , coins which I would definatly say have flaws and should be 69 , I am guessing heyimderrik might be correct that when the graders are looking at 1000+ coins of the same variety maybe they tend to slack a little or maybe just flip a coin (kidding), I really would not think it is that they are playing favorites but it is possible , I am sure if a big company sent 1000 coins to be graded and they did not get any 70s they would be upset. From what I can see from the coins I have had graded (except some of the lunar 1 stuff) I would have to agree with all the grades sometimes I will look and say it could be a 69 or 70 but in that case if even a minor flaw I would have to go with a 69 which could be what the higher standards mean.

 

No, no. No worries comeaux. I am not referring to you. Never. I love every of your post and always refer to what you have posted.

I can't say I love MCC. If anything, I can't handle a perfect MS70 coin because I am far from a perfect person. I don't want an MS69 either because it is just not a perfect coin. Contradicting myself, I know. Hahaha.

So I better be a watcher, and enjoy reading and watching what people do with MCC.

 

89 - MS68
90 - MS69
91 - MS69
92 - MS67
93 - MS69
94 - MS69
95 - MS68

04 - MS69
05 - MS69
06 - MS69
07 - MS69
08 - MS69
09 - MS69
10 - MS69
11 - MS68

The other ones I had graded a few months ago:

96 - MS68
97 - MS66
98 - MS69
99 - MS66
00 - MS68
01 - MS69
02 - MS69
03 - MS69

I will trade up the lesser grade ones, and make a MS69 set eventually.

 

Wow! Congratz SA@YPS! Be sure to post some pics in the Panda Photo section

 

Nice scores