Capitalism is good

Discussion in 'Markets & Economies' started by mmm....shiney!, Jul 21, 2015.

  1. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    The debt-money system we live under is destroying the earth. The charging of interest on loans is destroying the earth. Nothing will change unless that changes. Nothing.
     
  2. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    How so?
     
  3. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    You can start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury
    Though it's not just Usury in itself. It's the lack of choice of money systems (we will be jailed if we create our own to compete with the 'official' money). This gives incredible power to those controlling the issuance of money through debt that we create. Incredible power. The fact is that Usury has become common practice today. The act itself necessitates constant growth from the borrower (which is impossible). The act itself means there will always be few winners (lender) and many losers (borrowers). This combined with fractional reserve lending (pure fraud) is a toxic mix that virtually guarantees huge wealth inequality and lots of losers for every winner.

    In other words, many slaves. Many slaves looking to just survive and doing all they can to do so. The price? The environment. The compromising of morals. Just to survive. Just to pay off debts...debts that continually grow. Most countries today are in fact in debt to private interests...private interests that control their political systems and monetary systems (The Winners) while most suffer on their behalf. In other words, the money lender = Master. Everyone else = Slave.
     
  4. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    -1

    Usury is a term those fond of imposing their values on to others love to throw round. You'll find it has a strong history in the anti-capitalist works of religious leaders like Luther, Calvin, More etc. If you believe charging interest for borrowing cash is usury, then you've been scammed by the biggest scammers in history BBQ. The Church.

    Do you know the function of interest rates?

    The rest of your post I have no issue with.
     
  5. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    they serve to stimulate or restrict borrowing and also to stimulate or restrict earnings on savings. A crusty group of suits decide on it. Ostensibly. Booms and busts are created to extinguish the resources of the many for the benefit of the few.

    PS. you ignored all my other points.
     
  6. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Interest rates are the cost of borrowing money and reflect demand, like the cost of TV's, water and beer, they are a price signal. When funds are scarce, interest rate should be high, this would have the effect of stimulating supply, increasing the amount of funds in the market by encouraging savers to lend. Likewise when funds are plentiful and competition is low, there is less demand for borrowing money and the return ie the interest is lower.

    Our central planners ignore this and attempt to manipulate the credit market.

    As did you.
     
  7. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Interest rates therefore do not destroy the earth.
     
  8. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    I much prefer my shorter summation.


    And they always will as long as they have all the power. Will never change.


    You are arguing the exact definition of Usury. Whether charging interest on loans is considered Usury to you (or not) is not really what I want to debate. Why? Because I consider it a big part of the problem (along with the other points I discussed). The banks make billions each year on the slavery of the masses. Essentially doing no work and are involved in all kinds of criminal activity. The slaves are forced to look for all sorts of excuses to 'make a living' or merely 'survive' due to a system whereby debt continually grows and the cards are stacked in the Lender's favour, big-time. Whether it's on a personal level or a nation-wide level, it's basically the same slave system. Interest rates are a big part of this problem. Personally, I don't expect to gain any interest from no work, nor do I expect to receive when lending. But we don't live in that world. Those with the smallest contribution to society own it all and we live by their rules. Money isn't a precious resource. It's printed and minted and manipulated electronically, all under their rules...which we all live under. Debt is the name of the game. Pay the loan back with interest. Waste your life paying off your debts. If you can.
     
  9. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    I disagree. They are a major weapon.
     
  10. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No I'm not, usury implies force, what I'm talking about is engaging in a mutually beneficial relationship.

    Interest is legitimately paid to and received by those who choose to forgo the satisfaction of current consumption in favour of saving, in anticipation of making a greater profit in the future. If you don't work then you don't save, so the link you are attempting to make between gaining financially when not working is, to put it kindly, extremely tenuous.

    Yes, in the hands of the wrong people manipulating interest rates can be destructive. If left to the free-market though, they are nothing more than a price signal.
     
  11. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I work for a big corporation, and I pay ridiculous amounts of tax, if i was in the same situation in Norway I would look for work in another country and pay less tax. Not saying it is easy to relocate but me personally I would leave. As my skills are transferable.

    Also I would say to apple bring the European HQ to Australia AND WE WILL GIVE YOU TAX EXEMPTION SO apple pay zero TAX. (of course this is not feasible because we are not in Euro but we could be for ASIA)

    Apple has 5500 about to grow to 6500 employees in Ireland on on average $100,000 per staff

    Say these people are working in Australia that is of about $20k each staff in income tax for Australian government but if each employee spent 50% of the after tax dollars $40K on rent, entertainment and food etc per annum that is absolute minimum $260million boost to the Australian economy every year.

    Just dont get companies in industries that cost us money like submarine and cars
     
  12. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/usury
    Depends on which definition we want to speak about. Even the definition of 'force' can be debated here. And the way things are set up today, the rules are hardly mutually beneficial. Yes, it can be...in limited circumstances. But it doesn't change the underlying problem of many losers for every winner and the expectation of constant growth (and its resulting taxes on the environment...and people). And it doesn't really change who really holds the (significant) power in the transaction, making a quick slave of the borrower (or nation, or taxpapyer) if something doesn't turn out right.

    Countless examples where no work (or very little work) results in savings today. Usury (common dictionary definition) is behind much of it. We disagree about the tenuousness of my linkage.



    We are so far from a 'free market' today that it's not funny. Hence the need for the Slaves to wait for announcements about interest rates by the crusty suits. Usury (common definition) along with no money competition (and more) is destroying the planet, making slaves of many. The environmental (and human) destruction will never change in any significant way as long as we continue living under a system that forces competition out (yes, forces) and centralises power (power that ultimately rests with basically one banking family...)
     
  13. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm challenging your notion that paying interest rewards those who don't work. You'll need to provide some of those examples if you want to convince me. :)

    I'm more than satisfied that you've clarified your position and I agree with you. Well, maybe not the one banking family bit. :p

    Sweeping statements such as "capitalism is destroying the earth", or "interest rates are destroying the earth", or "the world would be a far better off place without money" are in fact wrong. They are thought terminating cliches, having no basis in fact and are shallow. The real culprits destroying our Earth are in fact our central planners, corporate monopolists, mainstream media, special interest groups and an ignorant electorate forced into being politically active every couple of years or so.

    If we moved beyond democracy, then we'd see a real change for the better
     
  14. BBQ

    BBQ New Member

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    if I gather wealth from your work by the simple act of lending you money, I am getting money from no work. Yes, you can argue that if I have to keep silly records and chase up payments then I have made losses. Yes, you can argue that I had to work for that money at some point in order to get it. But you can also argue that I am easily making an easy slave of the borrower. So much waste and destruction occurs on this planet by this act alone. Interest rates.

    Who owns nearly all of the central banks on the planet today? (Including the Reserve Bank of Australia)?

    Money is a fanstastic invention. Capitalism is something I'd love to see more of. We see very little of it. We see very little true competition in both.

    The core need in all of us is a desire to survive. The more burdensome the payments, the more people struggle for it and the more they turn to anything in order to survive. The ones who often make it to the top levels are the biggest sociopaths. The ones who work for them? Simply the ones who 'need a job'. It ends there. And continues there. The money system we live under forces on us all more and more central power and more and more slaves. From the top-down.


    recommended reading?
     
  15. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Except we are not really slaves to debt (another cliche). No one is compelling us to borrow against our will, so the debtor is not a slave to the creditor

    Aside from the fact the RBA is owned by the Federal government, the real villains are the ones that passed laws creating central banks in the first place.


    Yes and my apologies. It's in the member's only section. It's a link to a very long-winded discussion about this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15742545-beyond-democracy, including lots of posts from Statists. :p

    As one of the reviewers put it, a bit short on the beyond, but it's a good read nonetheless.
     
  16. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Basically I guess that I am saying that the terms "productive" and "non-productive" aren't helpful in the context of this discussion. What really matters is that people gain value from their interactions with others. Capitalism incentives creation of value for others. Communism doesn't.

    If someone with 100 flats chooses not to work as many hours in the week, then I have no problem with that, just like I have no problem with someone choosing to be a hermit or choosing to spend all of their time raising their children. They own their person and their property and are free to put them to the uses that they believe will improve the condition of their lives the most. If they want to benefit from my labour or property then they'll have to offer something that is of value to me.

    Division of labour and trade happens because of mutual benefit not because I am a slave to someone else's idea that I should be "productive to society" whether I like it or not.
     
  17. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Industrialisation, comparative advantage, the division of labour and all the other benefits of a free market operating under a capitalist system have enhanced both life expectancy and the quality of life for countless millions.

    If we take food as an example, in feudal times the vast majority of foodstuffs were grown locally and had to be consumed either in a timely manner or preserved/processed into another product in order to make the most of harvests, reduce waste and store for future needs. Food production was limited both in its variety, quality and quantity. Mechanisation, storage/transport advances and the development of crop science industrialised the food production process, lowered the cost of food for consumers and increased the range of goods available as improvements negated seasonal availability of produce, increased shelf-life, flavour and diversity and reduced labour costs.

    We've moved from local markets in a small feudal village, to huge supermarkets selling vast amounts of quality produce in our suburbs - and now, because the cost to feed ourselves has declined as a % of our earnings, we're wealthy enough to return to buying artisinal produce again if we so choose and unlike most of the past 100 years, there is enough demand amongst consumers now to provide artisinal producers with a profitable return on their investments. A return commensurate with other occupations, rather than just a meagre return from scratching in the dirt.

    Nowadays I can go online and order a carton of mass production lager for a song from a brewery that has been around for for about 150 years, or a carton of modern craft ale from a brewery that has sprung up in the last 3 years, or an altbier from a brewer dating back 1000 years. And I also have the pleasure of being able to chill it to my liking with my own refrigerator, something even a King could not do 200 years ago.

    Capitalism is good.
     
  18. Phransisku

    Phransisku Member

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    I didn't talk about any revolution or Somalia in 1991. I just said "Somalia", which must mean Somalia nowadays (in 2016). A revolution is not even a system.
    Somalia has a small state (perhaps even smaller than the USA's state), just like anarchists yearn. On the other hand, Norway has a very big state, which makes it an excellent example of Socialism.

    But it's interesting to see how quickly you came to criticize my choices because Capitalism has nothing to do with violence and religion, whereas for SteveS's choices you said nothing. Do you think Socialism has anything to do with the violence and mysery that prevail in Venezuela? Are you biased to the point of thinking that one system (Capitalism) was design with peace and love while the other (Communism) was based on violence and hatred?
     
  19. Phransisku

    Phransisku Member

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    Source, please. I want a credible source showing that Norway:
    - has one of the highest inequality distribution of wealth;
    - has a population that is envy driven.

    So far, this is what I could find:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
    Norway is the 8th country in the world with the most income equality. Finland is at 5th, Sweden is at 9th and Denmark is at 29th (you were talking about nordic nations...?).
    Australia is at 66th (below Mauritania and Turkmenistan).
    The USA is at 83rd (below Russia and Kenya).
     
  20. Phransisku

    Phransisku Member

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    No, you haven't. You haven't presented 1 single argument to challenge the idea that in Capitalism there is wealth flowing from the productive to the non-productive. Instead, you just filled your posts with capitalist propaganda, which is the one topic you already covered 14795 times.

    That forced me to ignore most of what you write. I'm not interested in capitalist propaganda, thank you. Those ideas were presented to me a million times already, there's nothing you say that I don't know already.

    Instead, I focused on the most simple topics that are the source of our disagreement. If we can't explore this, we can't explore anything further.


    One of those topics, perhaps the simplest of them, was:
    "If I lend you an oven and you produce bread with it, I'm not being productive, you are. And part of your production is going to me. My point is not about whether this is fair. My point is not about the balance between consuming now or delaying it and get an interest on it. My point is just this: wealth is flowing from the productive to the non-productive. And that's it. It's that simple."

    And your reply, once again, isn't able to contradict anything:
    "And your point has nothing to do with capitalism being better than every other system which is what I maintain."

    Yes! My point has nothing to do with that! That's right! That's what I've been saying all along. See:
    "My point is not about whether this is fair."
    "My point is not about the balance between consuming now or delaying it and get an interest on it."
    My point is just this: Capitalism is not a perfect system. Capitalism suffers from the same problem as Communism: it allows wealth to flow from the productive to the non-productive.
    And you can't challenge this, you just can't. You've had too many opportunities to do so and you were able to. Even with me presenting a very simple example, you dodged the point all the time.

    All this just means one thing: deep inside, you know this is the truth. And I'm glad to know it. What bothers me is that you run away from this truth. That doesn't make you a strong debater at all. It's as if you left the field and let me score all the goals. That's not even fun. Are you a man with an ideology that you can stand for or are you a believer in a doctrine you don't even dare to challenge?
     

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